Where's all the Shindo owners?

NOLG4EVR said:
I missed most of the fireworks on the thread that was evidently completely deleted. I guess there was a good reason.

It seems that many have opinions on Shindo, both informed and obviously uninformed. It seems many have opinions about this brand who have never heard or experienced the Shindo sound or flavor. That doesn't seem to stop people from posting what in retrospect are statements they regret. Maybe that is the reason a previous thread was not just closed, but deleted.

As to the fact that the systematic approach to Shindo among not only it's dealers but it's importer is preached to all prospective consumers has irked many on this site as well as another site I really am amazed you would get upset. Maybe it's because you all are used to dealers who are only too quick to lead you on and make the sale.

How many times have you bought a product and realized shortly thereafter you were not satisfied. You wind up selling it at a loss and move on to something else. Maybe if the proper approach was taken in the first place this could have been avoided.

I also think many are in the hobby for different reasons. There are the gear junkies and swappers, ready to try any and everything and experience as much possible equipment as time and money allows. Then there are the music lovers, searching endlessly for the best possible musical experience. I believe the happy Shindo end user falls into the latter category. The former end user will never be happy with Shindo or anything as the game and keeping score are completely different.

This is one of many reasons that Shindo forums become rather combative. Two completely different methods of approaching the hobby. I'm not saying which is right or wrong, just different.

Synergy is the key to excellent results, whether in high end audio, building a great car or bike or even creating a wonderful meal and wine combination. The pairings are what makes the all the parts work properly.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and has their own taste but to carry on arguments with experts in their fields, when they are only trying to help does not make sense to me.

My Shindo experience has been nothing but stellar and wish I had run across this type of importer and dealer network many years ago.
Click to expand...
now this is a great post and very well thought out. yes it definitely irks me this whole thing. its not the system approach its the fact that someone cant buy one piece like amps and live with what they have and then slowly upgrade into maybe some other gear in the line up when their funds permit. that may not bug you but it does me, and of course that is my opinion. only thing about your post i do not agree with is this line

" to carry on arguments with experts in their fields, when they are only trying to help does not make sense to me.

see to me the expert can have 200 years experience and that does not give him the right to tell me whats best for me or what i like to hear, there is no way he can know that. he may be just trying to help and i do appreciate that part and i would not argue with him just tell him he is wrong, but in the end i want what i want and if i cant get it ,than that part is what makes me upset. and in the other thread the "expert" was calling one of our best members here a liar and that is the only reason i got involved.
otherwise i dont really care who likes and dislikes any product anywhere as stated a million times that is their opinion. i would never make any statements about shindo gear as i never heard anything but a preamp a few years ago for a brief time. so i would not say anything good or bad about it.
but one more thing, we say lots of good and bad things about lots of gear here at the shark and its not a big deal. im going to hear a bunch of shindo gear in a couple weeks and if i dont like it this is the only product that i would not want to say bad things about because of the wrath it would bring. and jack is right in that point of his statements.
and thats not fair because just stating my opinion would definitely start another argument. maybe ill love it who knows but if i dont id like to be able to say it with out a war starting.
 
BlueMcIntosh said:
Yes If the dealer had a chance to hear that amps with my speakers in my own room.
Click to expand...

As far as I know the dealer went to the trouble to not only drive 5 hours but install amps and preamp and leave them with you for a full weekend. As far as I'm concerned that is pretty good before sale service. Should you decide not to buy something that is your choice.

Don't knock the dealer! They went out of their way to try and help you.
 
I ran my Shindo gm70's with Sonus Faber speakers for a few months. It sounded really good. But when the petite latours with their great sensitivity were substituted, it was an incredible transformation. I wouldn't have believed it, though Matt said that would happen.
 
NOLG4EVR said:
As far as I know the dealer went to the trouble to not only drive 5 hours but install amps and preamp and leave them with you for a full weekend. As far as I'm concerned that is pretty good before sale service. Should you decide not to buy something that is your choice.

Don't knock the dealer! They went out of their way to try and help you.
Click to expand...

JJ. You totally missed my point. I didn't talk about the my dealer.
 
All the dealers advocate the preamp as compatible and beneficiary in all systems. It's just the low powered amps need to be used with high efficiency speakers, and there aren't that many out there.

BlueMcIntosh, u would start with the Masseto preamp.
 
I've been sitting on the sidelines reading with interest the position of Shindo owners and non-Shindo owners. It seems to me that there is a lot of misunderstanding on both sides. Having recently been through a Shindo related experience myself, I now have a much better idea of how things work.

It seems to me that current Shindo owners have a great relationship with their respective dealers and in many cases, those dealers are local. These dealers have helped guide and educate their customers who now enjoy their Shindo systems. For better or for worse, Shindo audio is an ecosystem....you either accept it and live within that ecosystem or you buy something else.

The folks who don't own Shindo, but would like to, don't understand why their speakers, cables, cartridge, etc. are suddenly not good enough or more specifically, not the "best fit" and the thought parting with their beloved speakers or liquidating their cables, cartridge, and whatever else is needed to fit in, sends them running for the hills or at a minimum, gets their backs up. The folks who don't own Shindo, are confused to say the least, and I would guess, most don't have a local Shindo dealer.....so the confusion continues and festers itself in forums and other places. So for those who own Shindo, please understand that most people aren't fortunate enough to have a Shindo dealer providing guidance.

As I understand it, Shindo is more about enjoying the passion of music, the art of music, than a technical discussion of watts per channel or field coils. As such, technical info rarely is discussed when speaking of Shindo gear. Maybe this is on purpose, maybe not, because as we know, its hard to discuss emotional responses to something you've heard while at the same time spout technical mumbo jumbo. That being said, there are TECHNICAL reasons why your turntable cartridge may need to be swapped out or your cables won't be a match.

Let me explain. Shindo preamps with build in phonostages don't have any adjustability - therefore, your cartridge needs to fit in a small parameter of specifications. As I understand it, Shindo uses a step up for MC and has a MM input for use with external step up transformers. In that regard, they are very different than 99% or maybe all phono stages in the market. They have no loading or gain adjustment, therefore cartridges must fall into a small range of specs to work. With the recommended A23 step ups, it widens the possibilities but not all cartridges can work. Its not a matter of which cartridges Shindo likes or dislikes, thats not part of the equation. Its purely based on specs. And as we all know, cartridges vary dramatically in specs.

In regards to cables, as I understand it, if you're using a large, heavy cable, its very easy to break the jacks on the back of the amp. Therefore, something like the A23 cables are recommended. Again, these are things that a dealer would know and ensure their customer is aware of. Nobody wants to break the jack on the back of their new Shindo amp only to have it have to be sent back to Japan for repairs.

So yes, there is something to be said about synergy for musical reasons, but there are also technical reasons as well. Shindo isn't necessarily plug and play products....its a system approach, or more specifically, an ecosystem if you will - that you either buy into whole heartily or you don't.

As to my own experiences to purchase Shindo, I don't want to get into particulars, but let's just say they were frustrating to the extreme and quite frankly, I wasn't willing to chuck out my cartridge, cables, rack and whatever else was needed just to allow me to spend my hard earned money on what is admittedly, gorgeous sounding gear. Luckily there is lots of other gorgeous sounding gear I can spend my money on.
 
rower said:
All the dealers advocate the preamp as compatible and beneficiary in all systems. It's just the low powered amps need to be used with high efficiency speakers, and there aren't that many out there.

BlueMcIntosh, u would start with the Masseto preamp.
Click to expand...


I don't know what I am going to start with ...Maybe Masseto or Vosne-Roamnee either one will do. I think.
I'm not a gear swap per so I like to keep it for a long time.

Trust me whatever people said the 18 watts of Dyquem was more than enough for my speakers at 99db. I do not follow the specs. I just listen to my ears.
 
rower said:
And my banning wasn't about Shindo. It was about the lack of transparency and poor business ethics that I couldn't be associated with. I don't care who uses what gear.

There are many different stereo philosophies, and I found mine. But this is just for fun.
Click to expand...

this isn't fun. To be honest, I was pretty happy taking an internet forum break. So quiet and peaceful. Why do I respond here. Honestly, I appreciate the work of Matt and Jonathan. Many clearly disagree, but I respect their approach to brand integrity and preserving what they feel is the essence if the art created by Shindo. Ken approached his creations like art. Ken considered the entire playback system and the act of music reproduction to be art. Now if you don't like that, fine. Do it your way.

I find it incredibly ironic and logically inconsistent, however, that the same people who complain about the Shindo reps not respecting their right to do things their way when, in doing so, they are committing against the reps the very same act of which they complain. Apparently forgetting in the process that they are not in a position to have an opinion as to how Shindo feels (or felt) the products should best be utilized.

Again, my opinion is that this is a very ego driven exercise. We must be very smart to be able to spend a lot of money of silly things. Who can question our ability to build a superb system?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Petro85 said:
now this is a great post and very well thought out. yes it definitely irks me this whole thing. its not the system approach its the fact that someone cant buy one piece like amps and live with what they have and then slowly upgrade into maybe some other gear in the line up when their funds permit. that may not bug you but it does me, and of course that is my opinion. only thing about your post i do not agree with is this line

" to carry on arguments with experts in their fields, when they are only trying to help does not make sense to me.

see to me the expert can have 200 years experience and that does not give him the right to tell me whats best for me or what i like to hear, there is no way he can know that. he may be just trying to help and i do appreciate that part and i would not argue with him just tell him he is wrong, but in the end i want what i want and if i cant get it ,than that part is what makes me upset. and in the other thread the "expert" was calling one of our best members here a liar and that is the only reason i got involved.
otherwise i dont really care who likes and dislikes any product anywhere as stated a million times that is their opinion. i would never make any statements about shindo gear as i never heard anything but a preamp a few years ago for a brief time. so i would not say anything good or bad about it.
but one more thing, we say lots of good and bad things about lots of gear here at the shark and its not a big deal. im going to hear a bunch of shindo gear in a couple weeks and if i dont like it this is the only product that i would not want to say bad things about because of the wrath it would bring. and jack is right in that point of his statements.
and thats not fair because just stating my opinion would definitely start another argument. maybe ill love it who knows but if i dont id like to be able to say it with out a war starting.
Click to expand...

Petro - I don't know how else I can say this...I bought whatever Shindo I wanted. One piece at a time. I built my Shindo system slowly, piece by piece over the course of nearly a decade. You're impression that it cannot be done this way is not correct.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
Mike,
I would think 99db efficient speakers should be fine. Inked there is something I am missing.

I did find whenever I took Matt's recommendation, invariably he was correct.

I wanted to keep the SF speakers!

I just love low power tubes with horn speakers. They are so dynamic and just flow.
 
I know someone who directly compared Tannoy speakers with Shindo's, and while the Tannoys sounded very very good, it was the shindos that really sparkled for him.

That was my experiencing demoing both as well.
 
Petro85 said:
now this is a great post and very well thought out. yes it definitely irks me this whole thing. its not the system approach its the fact that someone cant buy one piece like amps and live with what they have and then slowly upgrade into maybe some other gear in the line up when their funds permit. that may not bug you but it does me, and of course that is my opinion. only thing about your post i do not agree with is this line

" to carry on arguments with experts in their fields, when they are only trying to help does not make sense to me.

see to me the expert can have 200 years experience and that does not give him the right to tell me whats best for me or what i like to hear, there is no way he can know that. he may be just trying to help and i do appreciate that part and i would not argue with him just tell him he is wrong, but in the end i want what i want and if i cant get it ,than that part is what makes me upset. and in the other thread the "expert" was calling one of our best members here a liar and that is the only reason i got involved.
otherwise i dont really care who likes and dislikes any product anywhere as stated a million times that is their opinion. i would never make any statements about shindo gear as i never heard anything but a preamp a few years ago for a brief time. so i would not say anything good or bad about it.
but one more thing, we say lots of good and bad things about lots of gear here at the shark and its not a big deal. im going to hear a bunch of shindo gear in a couple weeks and if i dont like it this is the only product that i would not want to say bad things about because of the wrath it would bring. and jack is right in that point of his statements.
and thats not fair because just stating my opinion would definitely start another argument. maybe ill love it who knows but if i dont id like to be able to say it with out a war starting.
Click to expand...

As I said I did not witness all the fireworks in the deleted thread. Saw the comparison to the Latour speaker thing, went out with my wife for dinner and came back several hours later and the thread was gone. So be it.

Reality is listen to and buy what you love. If you don't like Shindo don't buy it. And certainly don't feel you will start a war if you post something that in your opinion is detrimental to the experience you had with Shindo.
You are entitled to your opinion.

As to the experts thought, I have never claimed to be much more than a complete music lover. Yet, in all the dealers I have had the pleasure or displeasure of working with none has been more brutally honest with me than my Shindo importer/dealer. As I resisted regarding speakers, cables etc. when I finally gave in I realized they were right. The proper systematic approach worked.

As it can be said, be sort of knowledgable in one thing, you are dangerous, but be totally knowledgeable in one thing and you are an expert.

Just my opinion, of course I could be wrong.
 
kev313 said:
Petro - I don't know how else I can say this...I bought whatever Shindo I wanted. One piece at a time. I built my Shindo system slowly, piece by piece over the course of nearly a decade. You're impression that it cannot be done this way is not correct.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
that is really my only problem with any of it. i thought everyone was saying that a shindo dealer would not sell me gear i wanted unless i had or wanted to buy the right speakers cables etc ect. problem solved for me if that is not the case.

NOLG4EVR said:
As I said I did not witness all the fireworks in the deleted thread. Saw the comparison to the Latour speaker thing, went out with my wife for dinner and came back several hours later and the thread was gone. So be it.

Reality is listen to and buy what you love. If you don't like Shindo don't buy it. And certainly don't feel you will start a war if you post something that in your opinion is detrimental to the experience you had with Shindo.
You are entitled to your opinion.

As to the experts thought, I have never claimed to be much more than a complete music lover. Yet, in all the dealers I have had the pleasure or displeasure of working with none has been more brutally honest with me than my Shindo importer/dealer. As I resisted regarding speakers, cables etc. when I finally gave in I realized they were right. The proper systematic approach worked.

As it can be said, be sort of knowledgable in one thing, you are dangerous, but be totally knowledgeable in one thing and you are an expert.

Just my opinion, of course I could be wrong.
Click to expand...
i will know next week or 2 weeks if i like it or not. my friend seems to think i wont for some reason, but he will not get into specifics. and im not sure why because i like most tube gear. just a matter of is it for me or not. maybe he is just messing with me.
 
Petro85 said:
that is really my only problem with any of it. i thought everyone was saying that a shindo dealer would not sell me gear i wanted unless i had or wanted to buy the right speakers cables etc ect. problem solved for me if that is not the case.


i will know next week or 2 weeks if i like it or not. my friend seems to think i wont for some reason, but he will not get into specifics. and im not sure why because i like most tube gear. just a matter of is it for me or not. maybe he is just messing with me.
Click to expand...

Can't imagine you won't like it. You have tube gear now. What does your friend have? How much experience does he have with Shindo?
 
Mike said:
I've been sitting on the sidelines reading with interest the position of Shindo owners and non-Shindo owners. It seems to me that there is a lot of misunderstanding on both sides. Having recently been through a Shindo related experience myself, I now have a much better idea of how things work.

It seems to me that current Shindo owners have a great relationship with their respective dealers and in many cases, those dealers are local. These dealers have helped guide and educate their customers who now enjoy their Shindo systems. For better or for worse, Shindo audio is an ecosystem....you either accept it and live within that ecosystem or you buy something else.

The folks who don't own Shindo, but would like to, don't understand why their speakers, cables, cartridge, etc. are suddenly not good enough or more specifically, not the "best fit" and the thought parting with their beloved speakers or liquidating their cables, cartridge, and whatever else is needed to fit in, sends them running for the hills or at a minimum, gets their backs up. The folks who don't own Shindo, are confused to say the least, and I would guess, most don't have a local Shindo dealer.....so the confusion continues and festers itself in forums and other places. So for those who own Shindo, please understand that most people aren't fortunate enough to have a Shindo dealer providing guidance.

As I understand it, Shindo is more about enjoying the passion of music, the art of music, than a technical discussion of watts per channel or field coils. As such, technical info rarely is discussed when speaking of Shindo gear. Maybe this is on purpose, maybe not, because as we know, its hard to discuss emotional responses to something you've heard while at the same time spout technical mumbo jumbo. That being said, there are TECHNICAL reasons why your turntable cartridge may need to be swapped out or your cables won't be a match.

Let me explain. Shindo preamps with build in phonostages don't have any adjustability - therefore, your cartridge needs to fit in a small parameter of specifications. As I understand it, Shindo uses a step up for MC and has a MM input for use with external step up transformers. In that regard, they are very different than 99% or maybe all phono stages in the market. They have no loading or gain adjustment, therefore cartridges must fall into a small range of specs to work. With the recommended A23 step ups, it widens the possibilities but not all cartridges can work. Its not a matter of which cartridges Shindo likes or dislikes, thats not part of the equation. Its purely based on specs. And as we all know, cartridges vary dramatically in specs.

In regards to cables, as I understand it, if you're using a large, heavy cable, its very easy to break the jacks on the back of the amp. Therefore, something like the A23 cables are recommended. Again, these are things that a dealer would know and ensure their customer is aware of. Nobody wants to break the jack on the back of their new Shindo amp only to have it have to be sent back to Japan for repairs.

So yes, there is something to be said about synergy for musical reasons, but there are also technical reasons as well. Shindo isn't necessarily plug and play products....its a system approach, or more specifically, an ecosystem if you will - that you either buy into whole heartily or you don't.

As to my own experiences to purchase Shindo, I don't want to get into particulars, but let's just say they were frustrating to the extreme and quite frankly, I wasn't willing to chuck out my cartridge, cables, rack and whatever else was needed just to allow me to spend my hard earned money on what is admittedly, gorgeous sounding gear. Luckily there is lots of other gorgeous sounding gear I can spend my money on.
Click to expand...

Good post Mike. If I may break it down somewhat the essence it's your choice. Buy into Shindo gear and the peripheral choices involved. Or don't.

We all have choices, you have made yours, for now.
 
NOLG4EVR said:
Can't imagine you won't like it. You have tube gear now. What does your friend have? How much experience does he have with Shindo?
Click to expand...
thats the problem, he lives 4.5 hours away from me. i havent been to his house since he moved away 10 years ago, he got me into this hobby in the 90's.we meet up occasionally around here and go listen to gear. hes always got the best stuff and lots of it. he got into high efficiency/low watts some time ago, then got into shindo. now he is not moving out of shindo but he collects gear and has lots of stuff to switch in and out and has found gear he likes better to go with some of his shindo stuff . as he said i will see when i get there. should be a fun time. i cant wait to go. i might push it back until after labor day when i have more time and can spend a couple days.
 
Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but as a Shindo and Tannoy owner, why aren't the higher powered Shindo amps (such as the CCQ or CC80) explicitly recommended by Shindo for speakers that are harder to drive than Shindo/Auditorium/Altec and Devore? Wouldn't 70 W into 8 ohms be overkill for those speakers? I asked this question before in the deleted thread and on the other forum and didn't really get an answer.

Is there a formula out there that takes into consideration minimum impedance, driver mass and efficiency? If I could afford Shindo speakers I would get them. I've heard several Devore/Shindo systems at two different dealers and in both cases preferred my current set up. Not sure if it was the room or the speakers that I didn't like.

As I've moved down the Shindo path, replacing my Bryston BP-6 and Graham Slee phono pre with the Aurieges MM and adding A23 ICs and speaker cables I feel that I'm getting closer to my ideal setup. I'm currently using a Bryston 4BSST amp which I really like but I feel that there is more depth and texture to be found with a tube based (shindo perhaps?) amp. FWIW, I'm also a recording engineer and I've become convinced that tube based mic amplifiers and microphones do a better job of capturing depth, tone and realism than transistors and that's what I'm looking for in my playback system as well.
 
"Let me explain. Shindo preamps with build in phonostages don't have any adjustability - therefore, your cartridge needs to fit in a small parameter of specifications. As I understand it, Shindo uses a step up for MC and has a MM input for use with external step up transformers. In that regard, they are very different than 99% or maybe all phono stages in the market. They have no loading or gain adjustment, therefore cartridges must fall into a small range of specs to work. With the recommended A23 step ups, it widens the possibilities but not all cartridges can work. Its not a matter of which cartridges Shindo likes or dislikes, thats not part of the equation. Its purely based on specs. And as we all know, cartridges vary dramatically in specs."

This is not that big of a problem. Almost all tube phono-stages are SUT with an mm stage except for the Aesthetix, and that is why its so noisy.

Technically I don't know why, but adjustments are not as important when going through an SUT. In the extreme cases may not work, but the window of available carts is wider than you think.
 
mr_scratchy_esq said:
Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but as a Shindo and Tannoy owner, why aren't the higher powered Shindo amps (such as the CCQ or CC80) explicitly recommended by Shindo for speakers that are harder to drive than Shindo/Auditorium/Altec and Devore? Wouldn't 70 W into 8 ohms be overkill for those speakers? I asked this question before in the deleted thread and on the other forum and didn't really get an answer.

Is there a formula out there that takes into consideration minimum impedance, driver mass and efficiency? If I could afford Shindo speakers I would get them. I've heard several Devore/Shindo systems at two different dealers and in both cases preferred my current set up. Not sure if it was the room or the speakers that I didn't like.

As I've moved down the Shindo path, replacing my Bryston BP-6 and Graham Slee phono pre with the Aurieges MM and adding A23 ICs and speaker cables I feel that I'm getting closer to my ideal setup. I'm currently using a Bryston 4BSST amp which I really like but I feel that there is more depth and texture to be found with a tube based (shindo perhaps?) amp. FWIW, I'm also a recording engineer and I've become convinced that tube based mic amplifiers and microphones do a better job of capturing depth, tone and realism than transistors and that's what I'm looking for in my playback system as well.
Click to expand...

I think those amps are recommended in those scenarios. The problem or misunderstanding here seems to be greater than that issue. I think Mike nailed it. Some have a problem with the idea of a system approach. Shindo can work in many systems, but the system approach is highly recommended. That bothers some who, for example, want to keep their ARC phono stage or Ayre amps or Clearaudio cartridge, for example.

I put down my thoughts on my view of the system approach as a consumer who moved up slowly some pages back.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Question: could you run 4ohm speakers on a pair of Shindo amps? Maybe a pair of CCQ's for example? I know most, if not all, Shindo amps are rated for 8ohms and above...but I'm just curious.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top