Well respected speakers that you don't like

Question: if noone likes a speaker why is it "well respected"? Just because a paid-for reviewer wets his pants over it?
 
Question: if noone likes a speaker why is it "well respected"? Just because a paid-for reviewer wets his pants over it?

Maybe the price is high enough that you have to respect the price if not the speaker.
 
Question: if noone likes a speaker why is it "well respected"? Just because a paid-for reviewer wets his pants over it?
I don't think if none likes a speaker it becomes well respected. A well respected speaker is one that sells well PLUS has good reviews (plural; not only a single guy wetting hos pants) PLUS picks-up well in the fora like Audioshark.

Even on this forum you see waves of speakers that multiple members buy. Raidho, D3/D5 Wilson Alexia, Dali Epicon 8. And quite frankly, these are good speakers for sure but for example I couldn't wet my pants on either one of those.
 
I don't think if none likes a speaker it becomes well respected. A well respected speaker is one that sells well PLUS has good reviews (plural; not only a single guy wetting hos pants) PLUS picks-up well in the fora like Audioshark.

Even on this forum you see waves of speakers that multiple members buy. Raidho, D3/D5 Wilson Alexia, Dali Epicon 8. And quite frankly, these are good speakers for sure but for example I couldn't wet my pants on either one of those.

With regards to Raidho, you left off "and sell" after "buy." :D
 
Just read this thread for the first time......very interesting. Kinda hard to find a speaker that didn't make the list. Ain't it great.

When I think more about this thread I wonder how much of it can be explained by speaker set-up as opposed to the listener's personal taste. There are certainly a large number of great speakers on this list that have been widely panned. Is this because the speakers truly have bad SQ; are not suited to that particular listeners taste; or is it due to sub-optimum set-up experienced by the poster in question?

I would guess given the pedigree of many speakers referenced, set-up explains a large share of the list. Just my guess of course.
 
Paul-You may well have a good point. There are speakers listed here that are on some people's dream list to own while others here actually do own them. They all can't be that "good" or that "bad" at the same time. Could be the rooms and/or the gear they are being driven with that causes the myriad of opinions on how they sound.
 
Paul-You may well have a good point. There are speakers listed here that are on some people's dream list to own while others here actually do own them. They all can't be that "good" or that "bad" at the same time. Could be the rooms and/or the gear they are being driven with that causes the myriad of opinions on how they sound.


Oh crap, why do I feel like I need to look under my bed????


With regards to Raidho, you left off "and sell" after "buy." :D


Mep, I honestly would like your take on Michael's comments (link below) regarding his design objectives that I have been trying to explain to you which IMO make the Raidho's sound so singular from a musicality stand point, but also make them difficult to set up. Please pay particular attention to his reference to the vagaries of mechanical damping and the dynamic linearity of electrical damping (ergo his preference for electrical damping and the criticality of proper electronic matching).

Have you ever heard of anyone selling the Raidho's who powered them with Soulution gear? I think it is unfortunate you haven't heard the D3's with this pairing. Michael has been clear about his design intent and the tradeoff's regarding amp selection from the early days of the D3's. If people either don't understand this point or choose to ignore it and, in turn, sell the speakers while simultaneously espousing they are the most fantastically musical and engaging speakers they have ever heard, I find that very unfortunate; but it is not because the bass can't be controlled.

Please note Michael's explanation dates back to 2013 long before much of the online brouhaha about Raidho bass control. This supports my position to you that low mechanical damping was part of the original design intention which helps achieve the Raidho magic as opposed to what you refer to as a flaw (i.e., it is not cya by Michael after the fact).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkBF-LeW9ek&feature=player_embedded#at=387
 
Oh crap, why do I feel like I need to look under my bed????


I thought the horse's head was in the bed. :)


Mep, I honestly would like your take on Michael's comments (link below) regarding his design objectives that I have been trying to explain to you which IMO make the Raidho's sound so singular from a musicality stand point, but also make them difficult to set up. Please pay particular attention to his reference to the vagaries of mechanical damping and the dynamic linearity of electrical damping (ergo his preference for electrical damping and the criticality of proper electronic matching).

Have you ever heard of anyone selling the Raidho's who powered them with Soulution gear? I think it is unfortunate you haven't heard the D3's with this pairing. Michael has been clear about his design intent and the tradeoff's regarding amp selection from the early days of the D3's. If people either don't understand this point or choose to ignore it and, in turn, sell the speakers while simultaneously espousing they are the most fantastically musical and engaging speakers they have ever heard, I find that very unfortunate; but it is not because the bass can't be controlled.

Please note Michael's explanation dates back to 2013 long before much of the online brouhaha about Raidho bass control. This supports my position to you that low mechanical damping was part of the original design intention which helps achieve the Raidho magic as opposed to what you refer to as a flaw (i.e., it is not cya by Michael after the fact).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkBF-LeW9ek&feature=player_embedded#at=387

Paul-I will watch the video and mull it over and get back to you.
 
Oh crap, why do I feel like I need to look under my bed????

Mep, I honestly would like your take on Michael's comments (link below) regarding his design objectives that I have been trying to explain to you which IMO make the Raidho's sound so singular from a musicality stand point, but also make them difficult to set up. Please pay particular attention to his reference to the vagaries of mechanical damping and the dynamic linearity of electrical damping (ergo his preference for electrical damping and the criticality of proper electronic matching).

Have you ever heard of anyone selling the Raidho's who powered them with Soulution gear? I think it is unfortunate you haven't heard the D3's with this pairing. Michael has been clear about his design intent and the tradeoff's regarding amp selection from the early days of the D3's. If people either don't understand this point or choose to ignore it and, in turn, sell the speakers while simultaneously espousing they are the most fantastically musical and engaging speakers they have ever heard, I find that very unfortunate; but it is not because the bass can't be controlled.

Please note Michael's explanation dates back to 2013 long before much of the online brouhaha about Raidho bass control. This supports my position to you that low mechanical damping was part of the original design intention which helps achieve the Raidho magic as opposed to what you refer to as a flaw (i.e., it is not cya by Michael after the fact).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkBF-LeW9ek&feature=player_embedded#at=387


Paul,

It seems with Raidho what you get out of them is directly proportional to what you put into them. Grounding, power, amps with high damping factor and slew rate, appropriate cabling, granite slabs and positioning all should be addressed. If you are willing to slay all these dragons, you will be richly rewarded. If you're not willing to do these things, best to look elsewhere. You and I both traded in our Pass Labs amps for Soulution amps. These are the necessary hoops that need to be jumped through in order to maximize performance. I suspect we'll both be very happy with our decisions in the long run.

Best,
Ken
 
I can't believe this thread has 25 pages...:rolleyes: ... Just saying...

Mike, agree with you that this thread is longer than I thought it would last. But I think it's a testimony to this forum and its members that it hasn't turned into a train wreck like it would elsewhere.:tup:
 
Oh crap, why do I feel like I need to look under my bed????





Mep, I honestly would like your take on Michael's comments (link below) regarding his design objectives that I have been trying to explain to you which IMO make the Raidho's sound so singular from a musicality stand point, but also make them difficult to set up. Please pay particular attention to his reference to the vagaries of mechanical damping and the dynamic linearity of electrical damping (ergo his preference for electrical damping and the criticality of proper electronic matching).

Have you ever heard of anyone selling the Raidho's who powered them with Soulution gear? I think it is unfortunate you haven't heard the D3's with this pairing. Michael has been clear about his design intent and the tradeoff's regarding amp selection from the early days of the D3's. If people either don't understand this point or choose to ignore it and, in turn, sell the speakers while simultaneously espousing they are the most fantastically musical and engaging speakers they have ever heard, I find that very unfortunate; but it is not because the bass can't be controlled.

Please note Michael's explanation dates back to 2013 long before much of the online brouhaha about Raidho bass control. This supports my position to you that low mechanical damping was part of the original design intention which helps achieve the Raidho magic as opposed to what you refer to as a flaw (i.e., it is not cya by Michael after the fact).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkBF-LeW9ek&feature=player_embedded#at=387

OK. I watched the video. I actually made it all the way through. I find it ironic that the stated goal is to "remove dynamic noise" from the drivers and yet they released speakers on the market that made so much racket they offered to replace the drivers for free and I believe the crossover network too. I also thought it was interesting that Raidho's reference for designing speakers is headphones as Michael stated in the video.

If you buy into his theory of throwing mechanical dampening out in favor of electrical dampening, it's not much different than people who buy OTL tube amps instead of tube amps that have output transformers. Just as when you forgo having an output transformer in order to make your signal path "more pure" and it requires you to sign up to a whole new list of requirements for your speakers (must have high impedance/high efficiency drivers), Raidho speakers impose a whole new set of requirements on the rest of your entire system and room.

So now I believe I have heard/read about two theories that explain the Raidho 'sound' and the concomitant bass issues that have been well reported. The first was in the review by JV in TAS where he talked about the designed in Fletcher Munson curve in Raidho speakers. This would give Raidho speakers louder bass at lower listening levels just as if you hit the loudness button on a 1960s receiver, but unlike the receiver, as you turn up the volume on your Raidho speakers, you can't switch off the loudness button to restore the correct frequency balance. The second theory is what Michael described with eliminating mechanical dampening in favor of electrical dampening which imposes a whole new set of requirements on the owners for the rest of their system.

Paul, I'm just an observer of the audiophile scene. Some Raidho owners remind me of the joke about the two happiest days in a Fisherman's life (the day you buy a boat and the day you sell the boat) because the initial bliss of buying Raidho speakers turns into dissatisfaction for some of the owners. We have seen it play out on this forum in real time. Just as some people tire of the search for the Loch Ness monster, Big Foot, and unicorns, some people apparently have thrown in the towel with regards to finding the perfect amp, speaker cables, interconnects, and grounding scheme in order to allow the Raidho speakers to work their magic. Not to mention the changes you have to make to your room acoustics on top of changing your system from top to bottom because whatever problems you are hearing with the Raidho speakers is never the fault of the Raidho speakers-it's everything else in your system that is the issue.

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is that if you are happy with the sound of your system. I know that you have put in a lot of thought on how you are assembling your system and I hope you are successful with your setup when you are finished putting it all together.
 
OK. I watched the video. I actually made it all the way through. I find it ironic that the stated goal is to "remove dynamic noise" from the drivers and yet they released speakers on the market that made so much racket they offered to replace the drivers for free and I believe the crossover network too. I also thought it was interesting that Raidho's reference for designing speakers is headphones as Michael stated in the video.

If you buy into his theory of throwing mechanical dampening out in favor of electrical dampening, it's not much different than people who buy OTL tube amps instead of tube amps that have output transformers. Just as when you forgo having an output transformer in order to make your signal path "more pure" and it requires you to sign up to a whole new list of requirements for your speakers (must have high impedance/high efficiency drivers), Raidho speakers impose a whole new set of requirements on the rest of your entire system and room.

So now I believe I have heard/read about two theories that explain the Raidho 'sound' and the concomitant bass issues that have been well reported. The first was in the review by JV in TAS where he talked about the designed in Fletcher Munson curve in Raidho speakers. This would give Raidho speakers louder bass at lower listening levels just as if you hit the loudness button on a 1960s receiver, but unlike the receiver, as you turn up the volume on your Raidho speakers, you can't switch off the loudness button to restore the correct frequency balance. The second theory is what Michael described with eliminating mechanical dampening in favor of electrical dampening which imposes a whole new set of requirements on the owners for the rest of their system.

Paul, I'm just an observer of the audiophile scene. Some Raidho owners remind me of the joke about the two happiest days in a Fisherman's life (the day you buy a boat and the day you sell the boat) because the initial bliss of buying Raidho speakers turns into dissatisfaction for some of the owners. We have seen it play out on this forum in real time. Just as some people tire of the search for the Loch Ness monster, Big Foot, and unicorns, some people apparently have thrown in the towel with regards to finding the perfect amp, speaker cables, interconnects, and grounding scheme in order to allow the Raidho speakers to work their magic. Not to mention the changes you have to make to your room acoustics on top of changing your system from top to bottom because whatever problems you are hearing with the Raidho speakers is never the fault of the Raidho speakers-it's everything else in your system that is the issue.

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is that if you are happy with the sound of your system. I know that you have put in a lot of thought on how you are assembling your system and I hope you are successful with your setup when you are finished putting it all together.

Thanks for taking the time to do the report. My points are fairly straight forward:

1) The very high Q was by design and is a big part of what gives the speakers a unique capability.
2) By far the most critical aspect in achieving proper bass is electrical damping.
3) If you start with the right amps, the foibles you reference are moot.
4) Done right the speakers have few peers. I am not sure this could be said if they had a lower Q. For me, it was a minimal price to pay for what they can do. I just smile when people don't grasp this fully; when they disparage them for it, I do other things. :disbelief:

A few responses to your comments:

1) Raidho magic is real and quite easy to find, but electronics are the key to the magic. Big foot is not. (Or is it???)
2) The popping in V1 of the D3'S was a result of the drivers bottoming out due to the low flexural modulus of the rubber diaphragm used by Michael to minimize the vagaries of mechanical damping. Too much movement when used with amps not having exceptionally high damping caused the problem. Ironic maybe, but not inconsistent with the design intent.
3) Regarding a Fletcher Munson curve, the concepts aren't mutually exclusive. A designer's decision to bump the response curve is a coloration decision done to the designers taste. If Michael did this I will take JV's word for it (as he has spent a lot of time with Michael), but I have heard this from no one else. On the other hand, bass which occurs from an under-damped condition is a completely different matter. I have a feeling this issue is more the latter as when it is properly controlled it has not been a problem.

PS: I have owned a boat for almost 30 years and can't fathom living without one. I find them absolutely invigorating. But to your point, they aren't for everyone.
 
Paul-I see you bought the Solution amps that JV raved about in TAS for use with the Raidho speakers. How far away are you from finishing your room and assembling your system?
 
Guys,

This was a very interesting and informative discussion. Thanks for both your comments. You both raise some excellent points.

Ken
 
Paul-I see you bought the Solution amps that JV raved about in TAS for use with the Raidho speakers. How far away are you from finishing your room and assembling your system?

2015??? As a small business owner I dabble in different things as opportunities arise. My business investments took priority last fall and I am refilling the cookie jar. I am a patient guy. I keep avoiding the temptation to compromise and live with my old B&W, Rotel system in the mean time. As you may have probably gleaned, I also enjoy the process.

I am guessing your question may be related to when you expect my opinion to turn on the Raidhos, but I can say based on my limited time with the Soulutions and the D3's I don't see that happening. (And this was with crap power and an old Oppo 93 as source.) Lars uses the Soulutions with the D3's for a reason. I sold my Pass XA200.5's and Arc Ref 10 Pre based on this issue before I even received the D3's.

I promise you when I launch if things change you will be the first to know.:D
 
Paul-I appreciate the planning you have put into your purchases. I know you are doing your homework. If you can't make those babies sing with the time, effort, and resources you have put into this so far it wouldn't bode well for the common man. Contrary to what you may think, I really do hope your system and room are going to be everything you are hoping for and more.
 
Paul-I appreciate the planning you have put into your purchases. I know you are doing your homework. If you can't make those babies sing with the time, effort, and resources you have put into this so far it wouldn't bode well for the common man. Contrary to what you may think, I really do hope your system and room are going to be everything you are hoping for and more.


Dude, I be a very common man. Thanks for your wishes, but I still look under my bed every night.:peace:
 
Dude, I be a very common man. Thanks for your wishes, but still look under my bed every night.:peace:

I'm pretty sure that when you put your hands in your pockets they go in much deeper than lots of other folks. :)
 
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