Jack
Active member
Plus it's easier to take pot shots from under the cover of darkness.
Reviewer Rooms
- Thread starter Mike
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kzhtoo
Active member
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- Nov 27, 2014
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+1
How do you defend the pics of the reviewers' rooms in this thread? I don't see how one would come out as reasonable or agenda free.
- Thread Author
- #103
Now be nice. There's no need to take pot shots at anyone's work.
- Thread Author
- #104
I'm trying to rationalize it and I can't.
It raises some interesting questions. As Mike says, many if not most manufacturers have very nice listening rooms, and usually publish pics online. So who does the listener trust, other than his own personal listening (which I think we all agree that in most cases is too limited, or at least more limited than one would prefer)?? An established manufacturer, with many satisfied customers and a history of many successful products, or a reviewer who listens next to his kitchen and laundry room and whose qualifications and abilities are often little known or unknown?
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
http://www.audioshark.org/showthread.php?t=11511&page=7&p=196301&viewfull=1#post196301
Perhaps you could clarify the agenda of those having differing opinions than yours?
Dedicated rooms are nice, but manufacturers should make clear their absolute necessity and specifics, for product function/evaluation
- Thread Author
- #107
AJ's point that it is all subjective anyway is a good one. That's very fair and therefore, one could argue that those reviews are no less valid than drive-by listening sessions, observations at a show and more.
But I think the point being made here is "lead by example". If we all agree that a poor turntable setup (bad azimuth, too little or too much tracking force, poor alignment, etc.) can ruin the sound of a turntable, than its no less valid to argue that a bad room and just as important (maybe more so), the speaker setup. We must also not forget the importance of the seating position as well. If you're sitting in a bad null, the whole sound goes to hell. Of course, we can't know for sure without measuring, but I can't imagine that sitting behind a desk against the back wall is a good seating position:
I want to reiterate, like most people, I thoroughly enjoy reading reviews. I may not always agree, but usually learn something and that's a big plus. I don't think anyone expects reviewers to have perfect room, but from what we've seen, it does raise a few eyebrows. I would expect that those who review products as an occassional "side gig" have a much more valid excuse for not having a decent room (living quarters, WAF, finances, "hey man, it's not my day job", etc.) But if you're one of those who does it regularly for one of the top magazines, I would expect a solid effort to be made to create a good listening environment - this is your profession. Your room should also be backed up with measurements - so that your listeners know and more importantly YOU know as the reviewer where the weaknesses are in your room. That lack of lower mids on male vocals isn't the amp you're reviewing, it's your GD room. Measurements? Did I just say that? Oh man.
Would you trust a dentist with bad teeth?
Lead by example.
But I think the point being made here is "lead by example". If we all agree that a poor turntable setup (bad azimuth, too little or too much tracking force, poor alignment, etc.) can ruin the sound of a turntable, than its no less valid to argue that a bad room and just as important (maybe more so), the speaker setup. We must also not forget the importance of the seating position as well. If you're sitting in a bad null, the whole sound goes to hell. Of course, we can't know for sure without measuring, but I can't imagine that sitting behind a desk against the back wall is a good seating position:
I want to reiterate, like most people, I thoroughly enjoy reading reviews. I may not always agree, but usually learn something and that's a big plus. I don't think anyone expects reviewers to have perfect room, but from what we've seen, it does raise a few eyebrows. I would expect that those who review products as an occassional "side gig" have a much more valid excuse for not having a decent room (living quarters, WAF, finances, "hey man, it's not my day job", etc.) But if you're one of those who does it regularly for one of the top magazines, I would expect a solid effort to be made to create a good listening environment - this is your profession. Your room should also be backed up with measurements - so that your listeners know and more importantly YOU know as the reviewer where the weaknesses are in your room. That lack of lower mids on male vocals isn't the amp you're reviewing, it's your GD room. Measurements? Did I just say that? Oh man.
Would you trust a dentist with bad teeth?
Lead by example.
Mike Lavigne
Member
I see that issue differently, and I am at the head of the line of 'room is important' people.
reviewers are hired for their (1) writing skills and (2) their 'listening skills', 'feel' and 'experience' with the high end gear and landscape (3) desire to be a reviewer......and (4) how they interact with the industry. they need (5) 'a room' and (6) 'some gear', but those attributes are rightly down the list of what the editor is needing.
and my opinion is that the most experienced listeners can listen 'around' obstacles such as less than optimal conditions.
I do react negatively to pictures of challenging rooms used by reviewers. but then I rarely purchase gear that has been reviewed prior to me owning it.....so reviews don't affect me personally.....they are entertainment. looking around my room and gear roster only one of my cartridges and my newest dac had been reviewed prior to me owning it. I did actually read the dac review before I bought it.
- Thread Author
- #109
Mike - I agree with you, all valid points, except I'm not sure about the "listening around" obstacles. If they have no reference for what is optimal in their room, then how do they know what obstacles are causing what issues?
I think to be fair, some obstacles are very easy to move (tables, bookshelves, computer tables, desks, etc.) Others are near impossible (ceilings, windows, walls, etc.).
I think to be fair, some obstacles are very easy to move (tables, bookshelves, computer tables, desks, etc.) Others are near impossible (ceilings, windows, walls, etc.).
Mike Lavigne
Member
of course, the answer is that there is no good answer. reviews are flawed. but they can be flawed for many reasons, a few of which are the room and the associated gear not being appropriate.
so, we are left to view reviews as data points, as good as all the parts used to do them. which is variable.
a.wayne
Well-known member
Well ,
While we can all agree on having a clean professional looking room is a win, win for good photography , to do it correctly as a reviewer , as one who will be reviewing speakers of multiple topologies would require a room that's extremely transitional , as different speakers will require different room solutions ..
So its all strawman to me .....
If you take alook at Bonzo's Blog , look at the many different types of setups , room types , room treatments , etc and yet , many are achieving good audio , but travelling different paths.
So,
Thats the reality most are in standard rooms made to live in , most reviewers are not professionals with a lab , so i do expect to see warts, comparing their setup to Alon's at Magico is not being fair or correct , Im sure a Pr of soundlabs will need different room optimizations than his point source monopoles in that room, if Alon was a reviewer he would spend days pulling out, putting in room treatments and then have to walk those speakers around that room one inch at a time before he could even attempt to do a review.
Not picky enuff ..? Well less dig Deeper ...
A change of amplifiers will require moving your speakers for proper optimization , same for cables , power cords , et al ..
Why ..?
If one amplifier has way more Bass drive and slam than another , guess what , the speaker will energize the room differently and could lead to Wooly sounding bass , where the previous amplifier , required the speaker to need more wall re enforcement for decent bass .
If another is more forward Sounding and bright, more absorption , less so..! more refraction , so what is optimum and for whom ..?
Alon can tune his room away for Magico products only and make it impressional the way he wants , a reviewer has a much different task , whats important is that he knows his room and setup and can instinctly work around it ...
I would be more concerned about the knowledge base of the reviewer , do we share common ground on anything , does he listen to live acoustic instruments , does his own recordings , biased to Toobs or SS , digital or analog or believes Senna to be better than Schumacher..
IMO , YMMV, yada , yada ....
While we can all agree on having a clean professional looking room is a win, win for good photography , to do it correctly as a reviewer , as one who will be reviewing speakers of multiple topologies would require a room that's extremely transitional , as different speakers will require different room solutions ..
So its all strawman to me .....
If you take alook at Bonzo's Blog , look at the many different types of setups , room types , room treatments , etc and yet , many are achieving good audio , but travelling different paths.
So,
Thats the reality most are in standard rooms made to live in , most reviewers are not professionals with a lab , so i do expect to see warts, comparing their setup to Alon's at Magico is not being fair or correct , Im sure a Pr of soundlabs will need different room optimizations than his point source monopoles in that room, if Alon was a reviewer he would spend days pulling out, putting in room treatments and then have to walk those speakers around that room one inch at a time before he could even attempt to do a review.
Not picky enuff ..? Well less dig Deeper ...
A change of amplifiers will require moving your speakers for proper optimization , same for cables , power cords , et al ..
Why ..?
If one amplifier has way more Bass drive and slam than another , guess what , the speaker will energize the room differently and could lead to Wooly sounding bass , where the previous amplifier , required the speaker to need more wall re enforcement for decent bass .
If another is more forward Sounding and bright, more absorption , less so..! more refraction , so what is optimum and for whom ..?
Alon can tune his room away for Magico products only and make it impressional the way he wants , a reviewer has a much different task , whats important is that he knows his room and setup and can instinctly work around it ...
I would be more concerned about the knowledge base of the reviewer , do we share common ground on anything , does he listen to live acoustic instruments , does his own recordings , biased to Toobs or SS , digital or analog or believes Senna to be better than Schumacher..
IMO , YMMV, yada , yada ....
kzhtoo
Active member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2014
- Messages
- 1,615
I don't think anyone here is saying a reviewer must have a dedicated room nor a room with perfect measurement, but to cover the basics of a good listening environment (doesn't mean expensive rack/stand and room full of treatment either). Also, as mentioned by Mike, it's your profession. Neat and tidy doesn't cost a penny.
I won't pretend to know the agenda of those with differing opinions. But when it comes to those rooms in the pics, it's just common sense.
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
Ok Mike, so we may have narrowed the scope a bit to speakers(?)...and not saying these guys shouldn't review DACs or cartridges...because of their room. I hope.
Well, is there any evidence these guys constantly pan speakers? Is there some correlation there between their speaker reviews and what some see as "poor" rooms?
I think it might be a case of us view the half empty glass a bit differently. So here comes my agenda
. I don't see anything wrong with those rooms acoustically, that well designed speakers would have any issues with.Nor do I see anything correlated to such in their reviews.
Loudspeakers are very personal taste. That and how the room is "treated", even more personal taste. I would think if the speakers sound good to those reviewers in those "poor" rooms, they ought to sound even better in some audiophiles idea of an ideal room. YMMV.
Bottom line, always audition loudspeakers for yourself! I suppose that holds true for almost any component.
Btw, both REG and JA are among the very few that do in room measurements...and have the technical knowledge to review electro-acoustic components, rather that just blathering about artwork.
My 2c
cheers,
AJ
- Thread Author
- #114
I don't think we've narrowed the scope to speakers. Amps, preamp, cables, sources, whatever are all impacted.
Here's a thought: keep your crappy room and use DSP.
Gasp!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Here's a thought: keep your crappy room and use DSP.
Gasp!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
What would constitute a "good" listening environment? I have yet to see someone point out whats wrong with say JA or REG rooms. I also would prefer to judge sound with my ears, not eyes. I have not been in any of those rooms, perhaps many here have?
CPP
Active member
Got to agree with you.
So far unless some of the posters on this site have actually been in the rooms being shown as posted by the OP, we don't have a clue how these rooms sound or how they even measure. All I'm reading is conjecture. Are the rooms "beautiful and well laid out as per some of the other ROOM pictures on this site, maybe not, but who is to say the rooms sound bad, is it because some local experts feel based on looking at the picture they do !, well its still conjecture.
Mike Lavigne
Member
I've been in this room 6 or 7 times in the last 15 years (and heard any number of different speakers and gear). visually it does appear handicapped.....even in person. it's a very fine and balanced sounding room and has high levels of resolution. the sweet spot is in the near field. it can be overdriven but even then imaging suffers but it does not get busy or hashy sounding.
it's not perfect but an effective listening/reviewing room for sure.
it's biggest challenge is it's on the second floor and getting heavy stuff up there can be tough (or expensive).