Magico S3 mk2

Sorry to disappoint. They never have manufactured the Be domes themselves. Just like Bugatti (Porsche, Ferrari etc) never manufactured tires themselves.

While there are about four sources for beryllium worldwide, only one operation can provide beryllium foil in useful thickness for speaker diaphragms, and that is Materion Electrofusion INC.

Seems to me that I read an article in either SP or TAS years ago that detailed a factory visit to Focal and they talked about where they kept their BeO under lock and key and the machine they used to stamp out the domes. I don't think I dreamed this up and either way I wouldn't be "disappointed" because I have no dog in the fight. Many companies quit working with BeO because it is a carcinogen. So, I hope we aren't confusing the manufacturers of the BeO foil with companies that stamp domes from BeO foil they purchase.
 
That is ofc a possibility. Although why bother with machining poisonous Be* and stamping their own domes, if your foil supplier can do it for you ? Makes no sense to me.

*The commercial use of beryllium requires the use of appropriate dust control equipment and industrial controls at all times because of the toxicity of inhaled beryllium-containing dusts that can cause a chronic life-threatening allergic disease in some people called berylliosis.[SUP][6]
[/SUP]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryllium
 
I have the Paradigm Persona 5F at home right now - they are nowhere near Magico S5 mk 2 performance wise (and I assume also Magcio S3 mk 2).

I am disappointed to hear that the Paradigm Persona 5F are not up to the S5 Mk2 level, they looked promising. Can you elaborate?
 
The S5 are smoother, have much higher dynamic contrast (which I directly atribute to aluminium enclosure, which is more quiet and leaves less imprint over the music), they image much better, have better resolution through out the range, faster, more articulate bass and much lower reach. There is really no comparo between the two. That said, the Persona 5Fs are almost half the price of the S5 mk 2, so everything have to be put into perspective. It is not a bad speaker. They came after $24k YG Carmel 2s and I certainly enjoy them more.
 
Would be more comparable to the S3 price, I guess... Maybe Mike can comment on the S5 vs. S3, so we can gage the S3 performance ;-)
 
The S3 mk2 is more big brother to the S1 mk2 whereas the S5 mk2 is more little brother to the S7.

The S3 mk2 is everything you love about the S1 mk2 with bass that can punch lower and fill a bigger room.

The S5 mk2 is everything you love about the S7, but with a little less bass, more budget friendly and still fill a pretty big room.

The S7 has become a bit forgotten with all the S5 mk2, S3 mk2 talk, but it's the big brother in the series and once you hear it, there is no doubt. It's a big speaker that is seamless and disappears. It can fill the biggest of rooms and can play very very big (and loud).


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That is ofc a possibility. Although why bother with machining poisonous Be* and stamping their own domes, if your foil supplier can do it for you ? Makes no sense to me.

*The commercial use of beryllium requires the use of appropriate dust control equipment and industrial controls at all times because of the toxicity of inhaled beryllium-containing dusts that can cause a chronic life-threatening allergic disease in some people called berylliosis.[SUP][6]
[/SUP]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryllium

That's why Focal kept it under lock and key.
 
I would like to read that factory tour. Or better still ask someone at Focal. The devil is in the details. They might have keep the assy room under lock and key, not necessarely had the Be manufacturing site.

You know what - I will email Focal and ask :)
 
With a quick search I was able to find a clear and definitive statement confirming the in-house manufacturing of Focal's beryllium tweeters in the What Hi-Fi? review of the Focal Diablo Utopia, with the applicable quote excerpt:

"Beryllium is rarely used in hi-fi because of difficulty in manufacturing caused by its toxic nature. But Focal has put a great deal of effort into overcoming these issues, and ended up with a wonderfully clean and detailed performer.

Unlike many rivals – who buy in drive units from OEM suppliers – Focal designs and makes all its drivers in-house. This allows the company to optimise each unit for the speaker it goes into. This is one of the very best tweeters that money can buy."

Now I expect that some will speculate that it could mean they make the driver in-house from a dome that they source elsewhere, but I think the statement is pretty clear in its intended meaning. I don't own Focal speakers or have any vested interest in this, just trying to help find the truth.

You can read the full review at http://www.whathifi.com/focal/diablo-utopia/review
 
I see nothing in the text you quoted that would suggest they manufacture the berilium domes in-house.

Scan Speak or Seas also manufacture their drive units in-house, and yet they buy diaphragms, suspension and surrounds from companies like Materion Electrofusion INC or Dr. Kurt Mueller GMBH.

In keeping with the motoring example - Porsche builds their engines in-house, but they still source spark plugs from Bosch, pistons from Mahle, turbos from Borg, PDK transmission from ZF etc.
 
I will eventually be using the new Vitus Monos with them, but they're delayed until after Munich. Right now I'm just running them in with an integrated (Aavik U-300) and they really sound terrific. I had a friend over last night and he couldn't believe they were just fresh out of their crates. He wrote me last night afterwards and said, "...they completely disappeared better than any other speaker....that is the sound stage they gave us, just music floating in the air."

P.S. he's a retired engineer from VAC.
I love your choice of amplification! :celebrate008_2:
 
I managed to confirm that Focal gets the Be foil from the same supplier as everybody else - Materion Electrofusion INC. They press the domes in-house though - I can only speculate, that Materion does not offer inverted Be domes, which is why Focal had to get their hands dirty. But wherever the dome is pressed - that is still the same dome, made from the very same material.

That said - do not assume all those tweeters sound the same, simply 'cos they use the same domes. Far from it. Dome material is only one part of the equation in the tweeter design.


 
have we beat a dead horse here? lol.
Yes perhaps, but you might instead focus on the relative value of some of the posts by one particular member in this thread, rather than the thorough and cogent replies provided in response.
 
I thought Paradigm was making their own beryllium tweeter and midrange for the Persona. Is this not the case?

I have looked more closely at Paradigm and it seems that they use pure berillium dome and pure berillium midrange diaphragm. AFAIK this may be in fact the first to use a pure berillium midrange driver in the world (the TAD one is Vapor Deposited Berillium).

In their marketing materials thae state that the diaphragm is made from TruExtent Pure Berillium, which points to Materion Electrfusion INC - the very same company that supplies Focal, Scan Speak, Seas etc.
 
Apologies for getting a little off topic here, but regarding advances in speaker diaphragm materials, you may have seen the intro of the Yamaha NS-5000s at the Fall 2016 Tokyo Int'l Audio Show. All three drivers (tweeter, midrange, and base) feature Zylon diaphragms at a somewhat affordable price level.
 
AFAIK this may be in fact the first to use a pure berillium midrange driver in the world (the TAD one is Vapor Deposited Berillium).

No idea what the manufacturing process was in those days, but didn't Yamaha try this in the 70's with the NS-1000? But they for sure weren't capable of taming the beryllium the same way then it is possible today.

Re-published review, as the Internet didn't exist those days [emoji3]: http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/yamaha_ns-1000_loudspeaker/#k0tdCB7IdAQIjVje.97


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No idea what the manufacturing process was in those days, but didn't Yamaha try this in the 70's with the NS-1000? But they for sure weren't capable of taming the beryllium the same way then it is possible today.

No. As I already mentioned, Yamaha NS-1000 and NS-2000 models used vacuum-deposition proces on copper-plated aluminium molds. The NSX-10000 model, introduced in 1986, was the first (and AFAIK the only model) which used pure berillium domes:
yamaha_nsx-10000_3-way_loudspeaker_system.jpg

Midrange driver used in the NSX-10000 was a dome. Paradigm have introduced what seems to be the first pure Be mid driver with cone diaphragm - much bigger, and I assume much more difficoult to manufacture than any cone.

This is how Paradigm Persona 7" Be mid looks like:

midrange.png

It has quite the surrface area and I can only image how difficoult it is to manufacture. Focal once used to tell people (when they started pressing their Be inverted domes) that Be drivers are so expensive not only because of the cost of the Be itself, but also due to the fact that 90% of the pressed domes ended up in a trash bin (due to cracks and other defects). Now those numbers are supposedly lower as they managed to increase manufacturing process efficiency, but it is still not an easy material to work with.

And BTW, while speaking of the Yamaha - the NS-2000 introduced in 1982 was on of the first speakers that used carbon fibre woofer:

a.jpg


It was 30 years later when Magico introduced their carbon fibre based (and nanotubes reinforced) cones. As you can see, the Yamaha's CF was not even woven.

Yamaha was a true innovator of the 70s and 80s. They had huge R&D budgets, so almost everything was possible.

And btw - those speakers still sound excellent. It was the brittle sounding SS amps of the era that gave them their bad name, not the speakers.
 
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