High-End Audio - Obsolete?

[CPP]

I'm Talking about the rich, their condos are not too small. They are probably not big enough to get most out of their hi-end audio but they don't care, especially if it is promoted as being cool.

That's for sure. Down the road from where I live are condo's that have a sq ft of 8000 and up and these people the ones that I have met would rather put their money into investments than audio equipment since to them there is no return on their investment at resale for audio.
I'm not saying we need to sell hi-end audio only to end users that will not use it properly but we need a few of them or all these these brands we love are gonna go out of business as baby boomers go away.

I think a lot of actual newbies in this hobby find that the cost of the extreme ( what they read in every audio mag and in forums) is so far out there that they just "make do" and enjoy what they have and look for the best sound to match their wallet and their music. Heck I would love to own some high end amps and speakers but I would rather enjoy my time living at the beach and getting along with the wife.

 

[MusicDirector]

I think a lot of actual newbies in this hobby find that the cost of the extreme ( what they read in every audio mag and in forums) is so far out there that they just "make do" and enjoy what they have and look for the best sound to match their wallet and their music. Heck I would love to own some high end amps and speakers but I would rather enjoy my time living at the beach and getting along with the wife.

Well said! This is not just about "newbies". This is the essence of audio. Making do and enjoying what you have while making what you have perform to it's utmost abilities and/or looking for the best sound to match the wallet and music is what it's all about. Those with the means to go full tilt crazy would do well to remember where they started and to help others get the most out of what they can afford, not just manipulate them into thinking that because their wallet can't afford to go the same place, that they can not possibly enjoy the music. It's not a one size fits all thing. We need to make everyone feel good or right about what they have or can afford, no matter the price tag.
The most important thing at the end of the day is that we need everyone encouraged to listen to the music, regardless of the gear. Music is what brings about change, peace and all the emotions and passions of our times. If more people really listened to the music we would have far less wars and strife and extreme ideological differences, etc. and more embracing of standard differences between us and more peace and more cross-cultural understanding and good times, etc.

It's not that we don't need the high-end stuff or what have you. Quite the opposite, we need them plenty, but we need all of it, the whole picture.

 

[Petro85]

ive noticed alot of new companies out there offering similar quality for a way better price. it seems the new high end audio is alot of more affordable products than the uber high dollar stuff. sure its still pricey for alot of us, but these days you can go get a pair of great amps, and speakers for well under the $20k mark and be very happy with them and even prefer them to the $100k setup you hear at your dealer. im always looking for value to dollar products, in the past this was hard to match a pair of $10k amps to a pair of $30k amps. these days there is so much trickle down technology it seems easier to find these great value products .
im definitely not an audio perfectionist and know every piece no matter the price has its strong and weak points. its a matter of finding the product that has the strong points that you prefer. ive been testing alot of stuff lately, tubes, gear, cables and its fun yes, but now i am done and living with the system i have now and enjoying the music much more than i was when i was testing everything. during tests i play the best sounding stuff i have and go back and fourth and playing the same songs again and again to see the differences. now i just pick and album no matter the quality and sit back and enjoy it. as long as its music i want to hear.
high end audio is not how much you pay, and is not obsolete. its just changing and evolving a bit.

 

[NorthStar]

This is very simple; each one of us buy what he can afford according to his own lifestyle; music and audio wise speaking.
Right now I cannot afford expensive items from the high-end, but sure love to know about it.
And if the circumstances would have made me successful today, I know exactly what I would have done; buy the stuff that I can afford (speakers in the five figures, with the gear as well). I could easily perceive a $100,000 stereo sound system, plus a $250,000 surround sound system with the video gear, in my own home, no sweat. And I would have done it because that's the way I am and that was always my goal to push the envelope in my lovely hobby.

High-end will never become obsolete, not as long as there are people like me, and you. ...Dreaming, or living the dream.

 

[iosiP]

Some interesting reading (no comments): skoff

And further:
But I'm just a soul whose intentions are good:
Oh Lord! Please don't let me be misunderstood ...

So let me spell it out loud: yes I know a Patek won't keep the time as accurately as a Timex, but then, even people at Patek are not claiming this, so it's just okay for me! And yes I know that a SET amp is not going to offer the same THD as a decent SS amp, but then, even manufacturers of SET amps are not claiming this!
So it's just fine with me, as I can knowingly choose between a Patek and a Timex, and between a 6Wpc SET and a 300WPC SS amp. To each their own, and I would never complain as long as I have the liberty to choose!

But, I do refuse, refute and complain about scams and fraud: if your $375,000/pair monoblocks are only providing some 24Wpc, do not market them as 250Wpc devices! This is not about High-End, excessive prices or any other leftist manifesto: after all, nobody's forcing me to buy! It's just about honesty in a free market, and this should be treated with the same measure as any other scam.

So yes, you have the right to sell me amps with 3 watts of output power for $100.000 (with 24k gold plated knobs and diamond-studded default marks), but you do not have the right to sell them as having 5 watts per channel. Because his means deception, and negates my right to a proper choice (and the principles of a free market).
Hope I was clear!

 

[MusicDirector]

This is very simple; each one of us buy what he can afford according to his own lifestyle, music and audio wise speaking.
Right now I cannot afford expensive items from the high-end, but sure love to know about it.

And this really makes you happy? Constantly knowing about high-end gear doesn't bring you down?

Personally, the less I know about high-end gear, the better. I just don't like looking at gear (any gear) all the time and I HATE thinking about gear. I know that if I wanted high-end gear (and there is not but maybe a tiny little bit I would not mind having, if that) and looked at it and thought about it everyday knowing I could never obtain it, I'd not only get depressed, but probably go stark raving mad.
No thanks, music is all I need even if I didn't have any gear, I'd still have music and the songs I remember in my head.

 

[NorthStar]

Eric, with knowledge we evolve. And with evolution we hope for a better world.

 

[MusicDirector]

Eric, with knowledge we evolve. And with evolution we hope for a better world.

Yes, with certain types of knowledge we evolve, but knowledge of high-end gear is not part of the equation. On the other hand, knowledge of electronics, electricity, physics, how things work together, etc. does bring about evolution and it is not exclusive to high-end gear. The same knowledge can be had by study and experimentation on a $100 gizmo or even just a breadboard. Once gained it can be applied to anything low-end, mid-range or high-end.

 

[NorthStar]

Well said.

 

[Feanor]

And this really makes you happy? Constantly knowing about high-end gear {when you can't afford it} doesn't bring you down?

Personally, the less I know about high-end gear, the better. I just don't like looking at gear (any gear) all the time and I HATE thinking about gear. I know that if I wanted high-end gear (and there is not but maybe a tiny little bit I would not mind having, if that) and looked at it and thought about it everyday knowing I could never obtain it, I'd not only get depressed, but probably go stark raving mad.
No thanks, music is all I need even if I didn't have any gear, I'd still have music and the songs I remember in my head.

There is a fine line between admiring and having a certain interest in "the better things in life" and obsession, covetousness, and resenting others what they can afford & indulge. It is foolish and frustrating to obsess about what we can't have but it is healthy to admire them rather than suppress our interest.

If you have no interest in equipment, only music, then why come here? There are sites devoted to the latter to the exclusion of the former. (Personally I often visit the GMG Classical Music Forum, for instance; there there are people with high-end equipment but others quite content with mass-consumer compact systems.)

I flatter myself that I maintain a certain balance between music lover and audiophile. Also, a certain balance between the very modest equipment I can afford and the high-end equipment that is cutting-edge, SOTA, and far more expensive than I will ever afford but some of whose features might eventually trickle down.

 

[Mike]

If you have no interest in equipment, only music, then why come here?

Well said. The forum is called Audioshark, not musicshark. Yes, there is a music component as music is probably the one thing that doesn't divide us, unlike politics, religion or even gear! But the main focus is on the most effective reproduction of music.

It's like going to a forum for rebuilding old Mustang engines and saying "I don't care about rebuilding anything, I just want to drive one."

Instead of spending a penny on gear, look around for deals on live music. Here in Sarasota, if you make a $250 donation to the local radio station, you get a full year of free passes to Fogartyville: https://www.facebook.com/Fogartyville

 

[Rtan]

I just started this hobby 3years ago and enjoying it. Obsolete? No way.

 

[CPP]

Well said. The forum is called Audioshark, not musicshark. Yes, there is a music component as music is probably the one thing that doesn't divide us, unlike politics, religion or even gear! But the main focus is on the most effective reproduction of music.

It's like going to a forum for rebuilding old Mustang engines and saying "I don't care about rebuilding anything, I just want to drive one."

Instead of spending a penny on gear, look around for deals on live music. Here in Sarasota, if you make a $250 donation to the local radio station, you get a full year of free passes to Fogartyville: https://www.facebook.com/Fogartyville

What a lot of people seem to forget, without the "gear" and that would be any type of gear, be it a TT, radio, CD player, PC, playing music or live music etc.. there would not be ANY music:satisfying:

 

[MusicDirector]

Well said. The forum is called Audioshark, not musicshark. Yes, there is a music component as music is probably the one thing that doesn't divide us, unlike politics, religion or even gear! But the main focus is on the most effective reproduction of music.

It's like going to a forum for rebuilding old Mustang engines and saying "I don't care about rebuilding anything, I just want to drive one."

Instead of spending a penny on gear, look around for deals on live music. Here in Sarasota, if you make a $250 donation to the local radio station, you get a full year of free passes to Fogartyville: https://www.facebook.com/Fogartyville

I was just stating my personal priorities in conjunction with my comments about the subject.
True, for me if I'm needing a piece of gear then I have to pay attention to gear and do the homework and such and that's the place for Audioshark.
With that said and per your comments (which make sense), I know I owe Joe some pics and stuff and should continue what I started with the you tube vids in the Music thread, but your right, it makes no sense to hang out talking about stuff I have no interest in until I need it even if I restrict myself to the Music thread it hardly makes sense to hang around.
From the begining I stated that I could in no way keep up or even understand most of it. I have received tremendous help in the things I needed here to the point of unexpected surprise help and I don't want to diminish that in any way. Without some folks here I would not have been able to obtain a few pieces I have now even though they aren't "high-end" (they were before I purchased them it seems),for me it's tough financially and I have to save, but even with that I still could not have done what I have over the last year to present without the help received here. (It's also becoming much harder to save as living expenses are rising for me and I won't have much if any to put into savings).

Yes, I'm into music and while I'd want decent reproduction just to avoid fatigue, it doesn't take a 60k system, 20k, 5k, 1k or a $500 system to have music. If I had no gear at all, I'd still have music memories.

~Eric
PS (California doesn't do live deals and I'm out of that scene anyway..nobody I know is into music at all and it sucks going by yourself, I've done that enough times to know).

 

[NorthStar]

There is a fine line between admiring and having a certain interest in "the better things in life" and obsession, covetousness, and resenting others what they can afford & indulge. It is foolish and frustrating to obsess about what we can't have but it is healthy to admire them rather than suppress our interest.

If you have no interest in equipment, only music, then why come here? There are sites devoted to the latter to the exclusion of the former. (Personally I often visit the GMG Classical Music Forum, for instance; there there are people with high-end equipment but others quite content with mass-consumer compact systems.)

I flatter myself that I maintain a certain balance between music lover and audiophile. Also, a certain balance between the very modest equipment I can afford and the high-end equipment that is cutting-edge, SOTA, and far more expensive than I will ever afford but some of whose features might eventually trickle down.

Well said.

 

[NorthStar]

What a lot of people seem to forget, without the "gear" and that would be any type of gear, be it a TT, radio, CD player, PC, playing music or live music etc.. there would not be ANY music:satisfying:

...Without roads not much driving around. ...Without the pursuit of higher reaches not much life incentives.

...Without music, not much love for the reproduction from the audio gear.

* A higher level of music listening requires a higher level of taste; in all aspects.

 

[just dave]

Yet the Marantz was not quite typical of the apex of the '70s hi-fi mayhem. A better example might be the Pioneer SX-780, below.

Viz.:

• Silver face
• Full array of tone, balance, and mode controls
• Rotary knobs
• Flip switches (instead of buttons)
• Analog tuner
• Analog meters (instead of digital)
• Wood cases
• Inside, all or mostly discrete components rather than integrated circuits.

Yep good stuff from the "golden age" as I call it.

 

[Shadowfax]

I'm late returning to this party, but the biggest problem with audio gear itself, is that there are hardly any places to see, touch, and hear anything besides mass market Best Buy type stores ( non-Magnolia). I am not about to drop large chunks of cash on gear I can't touch and hear. I did it twice in my life and was not disappointed so I got lucky. I ordered a $1200 Odyssey Stratos Amp from reviews and talking to Klaus several times. I also purchased a Sound Valves 101i after sending back the dull SS Pre they had at the time. We are talking $550, not $20k.

I was lucky enough to be introduced to a real wide range of music while growing up the youngest of 5. My oldest brother was always building Hafler, Heathkit, and Dynaco gear on the kitchen table while another brother put it thru the paces with AR speakers.

We also had one of the best Gear Stores around in Soundex out of Willow Grove PA. When I was 17, I spent my first income tax check on gear. They had good entry level gear all the way up to exotic. So you could hear all the expensive stuff and then decide on which of the affordable selections could get you into a decent setup. Mine was an Onkyo receiver and Tape Deck with Infinity speakers. Great little setup for a 17 y/o.

Over the years I dreamed at owning the big boy gear and spent many a Saturday listening to Krell, CJ, BAT, Rowland, JM Labs, Dunlavey, Wilson, Dynaudio and on and on. I knew I would never own any of it, but could appreciate it for what it was and was glad others could afford it. Several times I would witness someone buying a $20k turntable only to trade it in the next week for the $30 model, while my entire setup was under $1k.

I dreamed and saved until that day I placed my order for a pair of Dynaudio 82s. It was pretty hard to justify to my wife why in the world a pair of speakers could cost $2400.00, but it became clear once in place.

I am in a pretty good place now and will be downsizing my house and life over the next 5 years. I am ready to sell off almost all my gear and buy some new killer gear for retirement. The problem is, all I can go by is what I read here and other sites. I live in PA, without taking a vacation to travel to other cities, where can I hear a Lebon, a pair of Harbrerths, VAC gear, Wilsons and so on? Who will continue to drop large sums of cash for gear they can never demo? For some, dropping $20k is pocket change and if it does not sound as they expected, they sell at a loss and try it again. I am not in that league and never will be.

So for me, the real problem with HE audio is the lack of places to see, hear, and touch the gear. I am pretty sure if some of the younger generations had the same chances to hear real world class gear, they would be looking a little past Dr Dre and crappy $10 ear buds. They just don't know.

It's funny how when most people see a pair of speakers bigger than Bose Cubes, the first reaction is "I bet they play loud". I have to explain it has nothing to do with how loud they play but everything to do with how they sound at lower levels and the detail they bring out.

Sure, most people will not be dropping more on audio than they do for a house or car, but if they had the chance to experience it, they would consider a lower tier that is not just a mass market receiver and tiny speakers full of distortion.

 

[CPP]

but the biggest problem with audio gear itself, is that there are hardly any places to see, touch, and hear anything besides mass market Best Buy type stores ( non-Magnolia).

So true.

Another thing to add, as some issues of these existing stereo stores is inventory. Keeping inventory in stock to satisfy an audiophile could be rather costly.

 

[Shadowfax]

So true.

Another thing to add, as some issues of these existing stereo stores is inventory. Keeping inventory in stock to satisfy an audiophile could be rather costly.

The MFGs of this high priced gear should be able to provide Demo models if they also expect to sell their own goods. The full burden should not be placed on the dealer to basically own every possible model.