Bashing...

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FlexibleAudio said:
So some of us are to aggressive and some of us are too thin skinned.....sounds a lot like life.

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this is true.
i for one like the joking banter between ss and tubes and digital and vinyl. whats wrong with it? if we had nothing to disagree about this wouldnt be much of a forum at all.
i say tubes rule and vinyl rules all the time, and it might even still say it in my sig. ill find out once i press the post button. but its all in good fun and dont think for one second it doesnt goes both ways. i personally could care less if someone prefers a record or a cd or a tape or a hi rez download, and plays them on their solid state gear or tube gear.
ive had the pleasure of hearing some really nice digital and solid state gear recently and couldnt say anything bad about it in all honesty, but i did kid around when leaving about how i had to leave before my ears started bleeding. did i mean it? no, was just kidding.

and for the record i never read any of the measurements of any gear i own or have owned in the past. why bother, just go hear it ,and compare it to what you have , or something in he store that is similar. if not, take a chance. my ears are the best measurement. (for me)
 
OK for those who want measurements and believe that ONLY if something measures better than something else can it be "better", the ultimate measurement comes from that which can be measured from someone's amygdala and limbic system in general. Anyone have those measurements? If not the rest of the measurement crowd is just filled with hot air.
 
I guess if we didn't "bash" a few things from time to time we would be just like the magazines which proclaim every new product to be the new "reference".
 
Design Audio Video said:
Myles, that's why you don't go to other websites. I'm a SS guy but certainly enjoy tube gear as well. I think the bashing gets started when people start speaking in absolute terms. You yourself said on this thread that tubes were the best. Everyone needs to remember that this is a subjective hobby and need to remember this when speaking. This is why I always say that something sounds the best to me, with my ears and in my room.
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Very well put!! I been a SS guy and love some tube gear, digital Amps to me haven't sounded all that great no matter what the measurements are until recently. One system I have right now is a digital Amp with a Tub Pre/Amp and the combo does sound good to my ears. I been a huge fan of tube pre/amps not so much on the Amp side.
 
Priaptor said:
OK for those who want measurements and believe that ONLY if something measures better than something else can it be "better", the ultimate measurement comes from that which can be measured from someone's amygdala and limbic system in general. Anyone have those measurements? If not the rest of the measurement crowd is just filled with hot air.
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++++++1

As an engineer I live and breath the quantitative analysis of of highly precise metrics; they are essential. But the only thing more problematic in analysis than not measuring is measuring the wrong variable and then putting emphasis on the resulting metrics inappropriately.

BTW, metatarsal and phalange oscillation measurements correlate quite well with audio gear performance (but of course this is a derivative occurrence of limbic system behavior).
 
In the end, I like it all. There are pros and cons with Tubes vs SS and Vinyl vs DSD and hybrid combinations of both.

DAC and clock implementations are improving all of the time, Moore's Law plays a part in that process. In that regard, when it comes to digital playback investment, I have a problem getting my head around the spend justification for something like an entire dCS Vivaldi stack. I've heard it. It sounds nice, but is it worth the price?
 
FlexibleAudio said:
++++++1

As an engineer I live and breath the quantitative analysis of of highly precise metrics; they are essential. But the only thing more problematic in analysis than not measuring is measuring the wrong variable and then putting emphasis on the resulting metrics inappropriately.

BTW, metatarsal and phalange oscillation measurements correlate quite well with audio gear performance (but of course this is a derivative occurrence of limbic system behavior).
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Tubes and transistors/ICs will soon be superceded by bio-neural circuitry!

What you guys dont watch Star Trek?? Voyager is Intrepid Class and is fully loomed by B-N circuitry. Jitter be gone! Standing waves phase shifted away!
 
The act of measurement or even observation can change the result. When it comes to audio, this is where you need those amazing Quantum Dots to harmonise your subjective consciousness! :roflmao:
 
Petro85 said:
this is true.
i for one like the joking banter between ss and tubes and digital and vinyl. whats wrong with it? if we had nothing to disagree about this wouldnt be much of a forum at all.
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I agree to a point, as long as it doesn't get to personal.... tongue in cheek can be a little harder to discern online than in person and we all need to remember that fact; but, if we can't screw around once in a while life gets boring. I also think as we all get to know each other a little better its less of a big deal.

The problem with forums is that each comment gets scrutinized within the context of an endless line of perspectives that can never all be satisfied or happy; but the great thing about forums is each comment gets scrutinized within the context of an endless line of perspectives that can never all be satisfied or happy. Ain't it great.
 
I started this thread and I did not mean it to be a condemnation of people who are enthusiastic about their equipment. In fact, these types of comments and posts exalting the virtues of tubes and vinyl do not offend or bother me in the least. As I said before, I like equipment using Tubes and I have used it in my own system. To use a word CD penned in a previous post, I was simply curious why there seem to be more zealots on the vinyl and tube side of our world. I didn't phrase my initial post well because it took until now for me to realize that was what I was really wondering about. It's not the bashing that bothers me and "bashing" isn't even the right word. I just honestly wondered if the over the top enthusiasm that some people have for tubes and vinyl is caused by something other than their obvious enjoyment of the medium since I do not really see the same level of zealotry among the solid state and digital community.
 
I have a preference, but have not heard the best of the other in my room for a long duration. At the dealer the 'other' gear was too rich for my blood. Its all moot to me, 'cause the recording has more influence on my enjoyment. Last night I klaudio'd my very old Jackson Brown Running on Empty lp. The first track, recorded live, sounded like it was recorded on a portable cassette tape from the back of the venue. Other tracks sounded better, but 'Running on Empty' might just be one of those songs that sounds good only on a cheap car radio. Some music is like that for me, I am more emotionally connected driving down the road than hearing it on my rig? I wonder if there's a measurement for that?
 
Bobvin said:
I have a preference, but have not heard the best of the other in my room for a long duration. At the dealer the 'other' gear was too rich for my blood. Its all moot to me, 'cause the recording has more influence on my enjoyment. Last night I klaudio'd my very old Jackson Brown Running on Empty lp. The first track, recorded live, sounded like it was recorded on a portable cassette tape from the back of the venue. Other tracks sounded better, but 'Running on Empty' might just be one of those songs that sounds good only on a cheap car radio. Some music is like that for me, I am more emotionally connected driving down the road than hearing it on my rig? I wonder if there's a measurement for that?
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Is that the Doug Sax mastered version?
 
jaxwired said:
I started this thread and I did not mean it to be a condemnation of people who are enthusiastic about their equipment. In fact, these types of comments and posts exalting the virtues of tubes and vinyl do not offend or bother me in the least. As I said before, I like equipment using Tubes and I have used it in my own system. To use a word CD penned in a previous post, I was simply curious why there seem to be more zealots on the vinyl and tube side of our world. I didn't phrase my initial post well because it took until now for me to realize that was what I was really wondering about. It's not the bashing that bothers me and "bashing" isn't even the right word. I just honestly wondered if the over the top enthusiasm that some people have for tubes and vinyl is caused by something other than their obvious enjoyment of the medium since I do not really see the same level of zealotry among the solid state and digital community.
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Well to answer that question, I for one would say my strong preference for distortion in second harmonics over high order odd harmonics and for analog over digital is due to having spent a great deal of time listening to both NOT an insecurity. The intensity of my conviction also stems from the degree of certainty I feel about my position NOT from an insecurity. But of course playing a self-practitioner in psychiatry just like any other profession is never a good thing.

The analog versus digital question to me is all about convenience to me. To my ears and way of thinking the very best digital with the very best clocks, time phase optimization, highest sampling rate, filtering, format etc. etc. are doing nothing more than attempting to get back to analog. MSB, Trinity, CH, and PD that I have heard can absolutely approach a good analog set-up but if you can have the real thing by just doing the analog from start the only compelling reason to go there is convenience.

To that end, when I want truly critical listening it seems like leaving the analog domain only to make an attempt at returning and hope the 0001010001's are perfectly restored to a continuum is not fruitful. Said differently, in well designed and executed systems comparing the same recordings, one in its original digital format and one in remastered digital, I have heard digital that approaches analog but never heard digital that is superior to analog.

I know, here comes the argument that I haven't compared a direct to digital recorded format like DSD or 2xDSD to the exact some performance recorded direct to analog but this argument always seems week to me given the above 2 paragraphs. The prima facia evidence of preserving the original analog information from the event has always been intellectually more convincing to me and has always been backed up unequivocally (for me) buy the empirical measurements of my ears. Music is inherently analog after all!
 
I'm sorry, but I can't just watch this thread. It has been interesting and there are things we can all learn or take from it. I know I have.

Bashing anyone’s choice of gear or music or format is just flat wrong, period, end of story. Not only that, but it is completely counter-productive and always turns people away from enjoyment. There is nothing worse than making someone feel inferior just because they don’t have the same gear or can’t afford some piece of gear or what have you. The same holds true for putting someone down who does not hold the same “audio beliefs” such as in terms of amp types, cables or media formats and whatnot.
There is no greater dis-service to the audio world than turning folks off by bashing their choice of gear or their budget or choices of music or format or anything like that.

Really, audio is almost 100% subjective and opinion because it all boils down to our ears individually. The only science are things like setting up a turntable or hooking up gear together, cleaning and caring for vinyl records, room treatment and of course the recording and engineering of said recording before we get it.
No amount of gear of any type will make a bad recording or poorly produced recording sound better, that's the facts.

So what if someone prefers tubes over solid state or vinyl over digital or visa-versa or tower speakers over bookshelf or classical over rock, etc. This is what makes the world go around. We will all have different preferences, that is what makes it interesting.
Can you imagine how boring and unfullfilling it would be if we all had and liked exactly the same thing? There would be nothing to talk about at very least.
I do agree that those who insist on bashing have no desire to learn or even just try things that they can and are insecure and whatnot. Why not ask fair questions and seek to learn instead of bashing out-right? It's like with food, you don't know whether you will like it or not until you taste it, (aside from tasting anything that you may be allergic to or something - let's not run with reckless abandon here). I've not yet heard a tube based rig. If someone had one to hear someplace or whatever, I'd take them up on the chance in a new york minute. What harm would it do me? None that I can think of. Why should I worry that I might like it better than my solid state stuff and visa versa?

I don't have a dog in this fight at all. As I mentioned, I have not even heard a tube amp yet. If and when I do, how do I know if I will hate it or love it before I hear it? I'd love to hear some tubes sometime at least only because I have not heard yet. (I have heard one tube phono preamp, a Jolida I think it was and that sounded awful to me, BUT I think the rest of the setup had something wrong with it, so I conclude that I still have not heard even a tube phono preamp much less anything else tube).

Measurements of solid state, tubes, etc. make little to no sense to me personally. I could care less about measurements except for safety reasons and necessities such as when setting up a turntable. Often times measurements are outside the human ability to hear or detect at all, so why would they matter? This again brings it back to the bottom line = "How does it sound to you"? That is the only thing that matters because at the end of the day YOU are the one who has to listen to it all the time. YOU are the one who selects what you want to hear, etc.

As it is with this area or hobby, all I've done is stated my opinion and that is all it is. Perhaps somewhere in it may be an appeal or a request or I don't know. Perhaps I don't have a clue what I am talking about or perhaps I do. It just is.
I'm sorry if this rubbed anyone the wrong way. If that's the case, you can ignore it and move on.
I just saw this going the same direction as politics and religion and it's bad enough those two are mixed now in real world aspects. That's why I have stayed away from both for years now, too violent.

~Eric

Just for the record there is room for vinyl, CD, streaming, vintage, modern (all SS just because, well,.... that's what I have. Might have a tube one day, don't know), etc. Each one has pluses and minuses and each has it's uses to me.
 
CPP said:
All I know, I'm just glad we live in a country where we have a choice to enjoy the music we like.
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What!!!! We get to do that????? Actually, I believe there are plenty of Genre bashers out there. Myself I prefer to Bash individual artists. :D
 
I've written this treatise before...and really pissed-off some Vinyl guys in the process, lol; but here is my theory.

I lump...and I say lump, to illustrate that I realize I'm stereotyping and generalizing...Vinyl guys, into 2 categories.

One...they're the "old" guys; meaning, they "grew-up" on Vinyl. So when they say "it sounds better", what I think they mean is "it sounds like I remember it". I'm not trying to denigrate or discount; as has already started to be pointed out...it's a very personal and emotional thing. So it stands to reason.

But then, what about all the "young" people; the new wave, taking to Vinyl? I think that's a "fad"; what's old is new again. It's "different", and therefore "cool". And then...young or old; there's always the ritual of Vinyl. It's so hands-on...so involving. At one time, that was thought of as a con; now it's almost a pro.

Digital seems "sterile"...not only because of this supposedly hard, lifeless sound; but because you can't touch it. Wax is so much more sensory; it's close to fetish, IMO.

Keep in mind...I have admittedly; NEVER, heard a really, really good Vinyl rig. But that's another tick, in the digital column: if you tell me...I have to spend 5 figures on a deck; another 5 on the cartridge...another 5 on the phono pre. Then...only spin re-mastered, re-pressed; 200g virgin Vinyl (at $30 a pop, I might add)...cleaned on a kilo-buck vacuum-machine...just to "best" Digital. I'll stick with Digital :P

But that's just me; because that "ritual" is no more ludicrous, than one I might indulge in...like swapping-out tubes, and paying 4-figures for some NOS glass...that was built by the English Navy, before WWII. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

So...if it makes you happy; sounds better to you...you, like it better. More power to ya!
 
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