MSB Reference DAC

Jim, Thanks for the comments! Do you know which Femto clock is in the MSB Ref that you are testing? Are you using the single or dual power units?
 
steinkrieg said:
Jim, Thanks for the comments! Do you know which Femto clock is in the MSB Ref that you are testing? Are you using the single or dual power units?
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It is the single unit dual power base. My assumption is that would suffice unless you plan on using the unit as a preamp where separating the power supplies would benefit more. Pretty sure it is the standard 140. I know it is not the 33 I will double check.

See post #85. It is the Femto 77.
 
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Thanks... I would bet that comparing clocks will help shed some light on differences between the two systems.
 
steinkrieg said:
Thanks... I would bet that comparing clocks will help shed some light on differences between the two systems.
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I guess all I had to do was to look at the information sticker on the top of the MSB flight case. The installed clock is the Femto 77.
 
Thanks... I have a REF on order with the dual powerbase and the femto 77... very much looking forward to getting it my system.
 
still-one said:
As I posted above one of my local dealers loaned me their recently updated MSB Reference DAC with a new Renderer card. Between last Saturday and this morning I only listened to the MSB DAC. I am not sure about others but my music memory is good but not great. When I am comparing gear I often makes notes about specific passages to aid in the comparison.

I have found it very important over the years to remove a product after a period to insure that any perceived “improvement” was not solely the result of change. I truly believe that we often confuse a change with better. For some reason any change seems to make us listen closer. After listening to a stable system for a lengthly period our ears/brain mask certain aspects of our gear.

For the first five days I fully enjoyed the MSB Reference DAC in my system. I moved my turntable aside, removed the ethernet cable from my dCS Upsmapler and connected to the back of the unit and Roon almost immediately recognized the unit and configured it automatically. From the first tracks I identified vocals as a strength of the Reference DAC. Vocals seem a bit cleaner without any hit of “sheen” around them.

During those first five days I wasn’t sure if the bass was any tighter or more accurately portrayed as compared to my dCS set-up but I defiantly enjoyed what I was hearing.

Based on my memory I felt that the highs may not have been as accurate or extended as what I was getting from my Vivaldi units.

To summarize the first five day. Day 1. Wow!! This is really good. Day 2. Oops. Where did that initial sound go? Days 3-5. It was constantly enjoyable to listen to the Reference DAC.

This morning I decided it was time to actually A/B the two units. I inserted a switch just in front of the two units and connected each unit via ethernet to the switch. After a few minutes Roon again identified both units as endpoints. I can easily select the endpoint in Roon and direct the output to my pre-amp where I can chose which device I wanted to hear by selecting the proper input via remote.

I have been going back and forth between the two units for over five hours as I start to write this. The more I listen the less I care which one is currently playing. In general I would have to give the edge on vocals to the MSB Reference DAC. On most CD’s it sounds a bit more pleasing to the ear assuming that the dCS is not more accurately conveying what is on the recording. The one area where the dCS vocals are better seems to be on MQA recordings. It is possible that the MQA filters developed by dCS account for this.

I do believe that my Vivaldi might extract a bit more detail on some recordings. Earlier today I was playing “After the Rain” by Melody Gardot. The birds in the background you hear in the first minute are more apparent and defined on the Vivaldi. The Vivaldi also appears to better define highs such as cymbals and brush strokes.

Which unit I prefer for reproduction of snares, kick drums or stand up bass is less clear. I would cal this a toss up with a possible lean towards MSB on some recordings. This is the area where one’s ability to play with dCS MAP’s, filters and Upsampling could impact ones preferences.

ADDENDUM

I have listened to many more tracks since I started this post earlier this afternoon. The more I listen the less I lean towards either set-up. I friend who stopped by today suggested I might want to borrow borrow two pair of common XLR cables so I would have the same on both units for the A/B. The XLR’s on the dCS are “tuned” for that pre-amp dCS connection. I thought I would see what would happen if I put the rather generic XLR I was using on the MSB on the dCS. Well that threw water on some of my earlier thoughts. Now the better bass and low frequency has moved towards the dCS stack.

I am thinking that the better vocals still favor the MSB set-up with the generic XLR’s but I am going to listen a bit more tomorrow with those on the dCS before moving them back to MSB to conform what I am hearing. I am not trusting my music memory at all right now, Data Overload.

More to follow.
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Thank you for the report, Jim. Did you get the idea that the MSB had a "fuller", weightier sound than the dCS? Such adjectives appear to be often used by MSB owners.
 
Al, having a little fun here, not trying to be snarky.
What if we compared my Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC to the DCS and it was found to be fuller and weightier? Would that now be a benefit or a detriment?

Is the question implying the DCS is thin or is it the MSB is bloated and fat.

Or is it just a simple request to have the whole review and conclusion, if it should so be called so, condensed down to two words
 
Al M. said:
Thank you for the report, Jim. Did you get the idea that the MSB had a "fuller", weightier sound than the dCS? Such adjectives appear to be often used by MSB owners.
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Good question. My initial answer would be yes the Reference DAC sound is "fuller" in the mid range. Part of that comes from the clarity of vocals. This is where this DAC shines. It seems like each sung word is better defined in space. If we are talking about the mid bass range it might be fuller too, but maybe not as accurate. Stand up bass notes weren't as defined. I picked this up on a couple of tracks on the Alison Krauss "Live" album.

I wonder what the impact of using different interconnect and power cords would have on my observations above? For that matter anyone's preferences

What I do know is that this was not as easy I anticipated. Both DAC's have changed since I performed my initial comparison. With their latest Renderer MSB has really upped their game. In my mind ethernet is the best option for today's digital. dCS continues to update their product with new MAP'ing options, new filters and improved DXD and DSD options. I like the ability to go back and forth between the various filters and Upsampling. For months my output was DXD and for the last couple it has been DSD.
 
Kingrex said:
Al, having a little fun here, not trying to be snarky.
What if we compared my Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC to the DCS and it was found to be fuller and weightier? Would that now be a benefit or a detriment?

Is the question implying the DCS is thin or is it the MSB is bloated and fat.

Or is it just a simple request to have the whole review and conclusion, if it should so be called so, condensed down to two words
Click to expand...

The question is not loaded. I am not implying that a "fuller" sound would necessarily be either a positive or a negative. I am just wondering about the general character. I am at this point not sure either if it would be beneficial if my Schiit Yggdrasil 2 DAC would sound any fuller than it does, or perhaps it would be, who knows. Should a DAC sound full and weighty on all material? Probably not, because that would mask differences between recordings. But it shouldn't sound thin on all material either.

I was asking the question for two reasons:
1) ofter the MSB sound is referred to as full and weighty, distinguishing it from the sound of other DACs
2) on the other hand, the issue of differences in "fullness" and weight sound of sound did not specifically come up in the review by Jim, and I assume for a reason, because he did not hear so many differences in that respect? I am curious to hear from Jim.
 
Ok, Jim and I cross-posted; I hadn't seen his post before I submitted mine. Thanks, Jim, for the reply.
 
You know, something I noticed when I got my Mojo was the tonality was much more accurate. Instruments and vocals sounded much more real, like like the actual thing. I did not realize how important that was to me until I heard it. I've become less focus on the weightiness and thickness as I became more focused on this sounds like a true instrument. The only time I find myself really thinking about the wait is when I come home from listening to somebody's reel to reel tape.

Oddly this Thread got me musing about the old days when I would try and recreate songs I heard on the radio playing them with the instruments that I owned. I never felt I could get it to sound like what I heard on the radio. Now with my much more accurate audio components, it's much easier to distinguish what is being played and how to reproduce it with something I have in my hands. It's not that anything's really different with the instruments. It's the way the music comes across is so much different. The audio playback is totally more correct and therefore more like a real acoustic guitar in my hands. Not some garbled mock that comes out of a cheap stereo.
 
still-one said:
Good question. My initial answer would be yes the Reference DAC sound is "fuller" in the mid range. Part of that comes from the clarity of vocals. This is where this DAC shines. It seems like each sung word is better defined in space. If we are talking about the mid bass range it might be fuller too, but maybe not as accurate. Stand up bass notes weren't as defined. I picked this up on a couple of tracks on the Alison Krauss "Live" album.

I wonder what the impact of using different interconnect and power cords would have on my observations above? For that matter anyone's preferences

What I do know is that this was not as easy I anticipated. Both DAC's have changed since I performed my initial comparison. With their latest Renderer MSB has really upped their game. In my mind ethernet is the best option for today's digital. dCS continues to update their product with new MAP'ing options, new filters and improved DXD and DSD options. I like the ability to go back and forth between the various filters and Upsampling. For months my output was DXD and for the last couple it has been DSD.
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Jim,

Too bad you couldn’t audition the Reference DAC with the Femto 33 clock. It makes a significant difference in timbral accuracy. I listened to the Reference DAC (Femto 33, Upgraded Preamp Module and Single Powerbase) for the better part of 3 days at RMAF 2017 and its performance was stellar.

Ken
 
Both are leaders, no doubt. Perhaps in this league, you measure dollar for dollar and see what you get?

I’m guessing the Femto 33 was around a $14K retail option, and if you have the option to power cable the MSB separately for analog and digital then I’m sure that would make a difference.

Then comes finding the right cables for the two, if not the same or even both/combination OEM to neutralize the comparison.

As I write this, I’m thinking there is no way you can make a wrong decision between the two!

And for that matter is Rex’s comments on other brand options where there spot could be in the same series, and my thought there is what supports it, meaning if the support is stronger on a less perceived component it may be falling on the same level.





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
By the way I was not trying to step on or derail this topic. I was just noting how I am seeing music in a new way. It's one thing to get weight, dark background, dynamics etc. It's another to have the tone correct, accurate and realistic. I assume both the DCS and MSB are going to do as such. The 3 dac I owned before my current one did not do it the same. It is leading me to try a single driver direct coupled speaker. I really gravitate to tone.
 
Jim -

Thanks for posting your impressions. Many of us see MSB and DCS as among the top digital product companies in audio. And, unfortunately, while many argue about of one being better than the other, it is very rare to see a side by side comparison. In any event, looks like you had fun and, maybe, a little stress while going through this process.
 
I had a conversation with the maker of my preamp a few weeks ago. I just had it updated and we were talking about what the changes meant to me, and to him. Durring out conversation I wrote some notes on what he thinks about, listens for and strives to create in his musical equipment. These are his words.
Humanness
Heart
The Feel, not the sound
All has to be there.
Can't put a finger on it, as it's emotional.
Not Hyped, just there.
Not drawing attention.
Draws you in. Makes you want to be there.

Do either DAC elicit more or less of an emotional response in you. A response of the "heart". Do you ever get tears in your eyes.
 
Kingrex said:
I had a conversation with the maker of my preamp a few weeks ago. I just had it updated and we were talking about what the changes meant to me, and to him. Durring out conversation I wrote some notes on what he thinks about, listens for and strives to create in his musical equipment. These are his words.
Humanness
Heart
The Feel, not the sound
All has to be there.
Can't put a finger on it, as it's emotional.
Not Hyped, just there.
Not drawing attention.
Draws you in. Makes you want to be there.

Do either DAC elicit more or less of an emotional response in you. A response of the "heart". Do you ever get tears in your eyes.
Click to expand...

And you bought from this guy?
It's so subjective it's basically meaningless....
 
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