Ethernet switch box

Devg said:
Fine with me and I don't really care. I am not trying to convince anybody, except documenting some facts which are very misleading, for example one really can't hear noise directly but its manifestation. Some of the etherRegen claims may be just bogus but that doesn't mean its not helping the network at all. It does and so does some other non-audiophile switches as well (I won't name names).

Bits are bits, right ? Why on earth do you think manufactures are building high-end music servers ? If not all but some are indeed tackling some of the very nastiness of digital tit-bits and just not for some gimmicks.

Unfortunately, no one (I literally mean no one) has ever found a way to measure anything or prove anything. Being an engineer dealing with extreme high-speed data myself in my professional life, I was a naysayer (just like many of us), until I started to use some of my own and it all started just as a DIY experiment. I know very well the concept of "searching of a problem for a solution that doesn't exist" and hence I dwindle down the road with extreme caution :)
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Actually, there are folks who have devised objective testing and measuring methods for the things that you mentioned in your post. For example, the two articles below discuss "Bits are bits" and "high-end music servers".

Archimago's Musings: MUSINGS / DEMO: Why "Bits Are Bits". Let's not add unnecessary fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

Archimago's Musings: MUSINGS: Windows Server 2019 update, RSC performance issues with Aquantia 10GbE AQC107, and expensive audiophile server computers (like the Wolf Audio Alpha 3 SX)...

There is also an article about Ethernet Switch Boxes as well:

Archimago's Musings: MUSINGS/MEASUREMENTS: Netgear Nighthawk S8000 (and audiophile ethernet switches)

The methodology and equipment used are detailed by the author.
 
rbbert said:
To the latter, one is in the audio signal line, one isn’t. That doesn’t necessarily mean each isn’t important, only that they aren’t very analogous.
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Ok, point taken. I was only referring to the last couple stretches in both the cases as it effects the final results equally but I see your point.

rbbert said:
To the first, $40-$50k to “beat” how expensive a CD player? And how about a 24/192 or DSD128 file through a “modest” DAC (Lampi, MSB, whatever)?
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See, I am not buying any of those servers. I am a poor audiophile on a DIY route :| One thing to note, the bit-rates 24/192 or 384 or 768 or 1536 or DSD64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048 has nothing to do with the server if you are playing them in native resolution and you have sufficient network bandwidth when streaming. Once you start upsampling in the software, its a different ball game altogether.
 
Devg said:
Unfortunately what you personally believe is incorrect. Nothing is lost in converting stages - they are extremely fast and handled at line rates. One thing that can possibly effect the SQ is the transmitted noise from the convertor chip (they are indeed high speed intefaces) but that can be handled with good design, like eR or Sonore Optical Module.
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And here I was starting to like you :D... as I said, I do not have knowledge of the convertors but formed an opinion (that could be and appears to be incorrect) from many years working in the computer field.

I still stick with my opinion that the advantage will be minimal in a home network.
 
Randy Myers said:
And here I was starting to like you :D... as I said, I do not have knowledge of the convertors but formed an opinion (that could be and appears to be incorrect) from many years working in the computer field.

I still stick with my opinion that the advantage will be minimal in a home network.
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The advantage is not about network bandwidth or anything remotely to do with networking. With copper RJ45 or Fiber, you basically get exactly the same speed, the same latency and same everything related to networking. The advantage is mainly to eliminate the ground noise - now if you don't have any of the ground noise, then you are really golden and you can sit back, relax and enjoy the music ;)

fyi, I am honestly trying to explain some of the stuff which I think many has misconception. I am not trying to sell anybody anything or recommend one product or the other if you read back all my posts.
 
Devg said:
...See, I am not buying any of those servers. I am a poor audiophile on a DIY route :| One thing to note, the bit-rates 24/192 or 384 or 768 or 1536 or DSD64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, 2048 has nothing to do with the server if you are playing them in native resolution and you have sufficient network bandwidth when streaming. Once you start upsampling in the software, its a different ball game altogether.
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You were the one who mentioned the Taiko with Melco switches :hey: And you mentioned CD player, I was merely throwing out some other formats to compare.
Don't you think playing a home storage file with whatever network one has is likely to sound better than streaming it from Tidal or Qobuz?
 
rbbert said:
You were the one who mentioned the Taiko with Melco switches :hey: And you mentioned CD player, I was merely throwing out some other formats to compare.
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Well, the recommendation was if you want the best out of streaming.

rbbert said:
Don't you think playing a home storage file with whatever network one has is likely to sound better than streaming it from Tidal or Qobuz?
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No, theoretically they should sound the same. The question is not so much about if the data is in the internet datacenter vs in your home. It's more to do with network connectivity with the server/streamer/DAC. Having said that and after many experiments, I have abandoned my NAS and moved everything on local drive running in the server. So my audio path is not directly attached to the networking subsystem.
 
Devg said:
The advantage is not about network bandwidth or anything remotely to do with networking. With copper RJ45 or Fiber, you basically get exactly the same speed, the same latency and same everything related to networking. The advantage is mainly to eliminate the ground noise - now if you don't have any of the ground noise, then you are really golden and you can sit back, relax and enjoy the music ;)

fyi, I am honestly trying to explain some of the stuff which I think many has misconception. I am not trying to sell anybody anything or recommend one product or the other if you read back all my posts.
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Yea, I know. Just having a little fun with ya. :)
 
Devg said:
...
No, theoretically they should sound the same. The question is not so much about if the data is in the internet datacenter vs in your home. It's more to do with network connectivity with the server/streamer/DAC. Having said that and after many experiments, I have abandoned my NAS and moved everything on local drive running in the server. So my audio path is not directly attached to the networking subsystem.
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First, it sounds as if your practical solution doesn't quite agree with the theoretical perspective from the first sentence. Second, it's hard to see how they would even theoretically sound the same since there is likely to be all sorts of switching noise and other grunge at the transmitting end (Tidal or Qobuz)

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I'm still trying to best configure a server/DAC combination using local storage, a setup you also now seem to be using. I'm not really interested in streaming at this time.
 
rbbert said:
I do think he was referring to replacing SMPS with LPS as unnecessary, and I was responding with my opinion and experience for only a couple of specific and limited situations
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I do think there could be sonic improvements to be had by replacing a SMPS with a linear power supply, but I’m not sure all digital devices will benefit equally. In my setup, I would like to hear the difference with a linear power supply powering my Roon Nucleus+ vice the wall wart it comes with.
 
Devg said:
Fine with me and I don't really care. I am not trying to convince anybody, except documenting some facts which are very misleading, for example one really can't hear noise directly but its manifestation. Some of the etherRegen claims may be just bogus but that doesn't mean its not helping the network at all. It does and so does some other non-audiophile switches as well (I won't name names).

Bits are bits, right ? Why on earth do you think manufactures are building high-end music servers ? If not all but some are indeed tackling some of the very nastiness of digital tit-bits and just not for some gimmicks.

Unfortunately, no one (I literally mean no one) has ever found a way to measure anything or prove anything. Being an engineer dealing with extreme high-speed data myself in my professional life, I was a naysayer (just like many of us), until I started to use some of my own and it all started just as a DIY experiment. I know very well the concept of "searching of a problem for a solution that doesn't exist" and hence I dwindle down the road with extreme caution :)
Click to expand...

Are you serious? I can't believe you are an engineer and you made that statement. We damn sure have figured out how to take measurements and prove that something works. It's called science. We even know how to measure the measurement devices and prove they are still accurate. It's called calibration and we actually have national calibration standards. We didn't send men to the moon based on feelings and hunches.
 
Devg said:
Streaming can equal or even exceed a good CD player. Just buy the Taiko extreme and couple of PF modded Melco switches :)



Why not ? Isn't last couple of stretches of the marathon that matter in both the cases ? :rolleyes:
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Says who? What is a "good CD player"? What CD players have you used to compare against streaming the same music.
 
rbbert said:
You were the one who mentioned the Taiko with Melco switches :hey: And you mentioned CD player, I was merely throwing out some other formats to compare.
Don't you think playing a home storage file with whatever network one has is likely to sound better than streaming it from Tidal or Qobuz?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be ready to take that leap of faith. They are both stored digital files that you are calling up and playing. Some people are adamant that the best sounding digital reproduction is going to come from spinning a CD on a high end CD spinner like a CEC belt drive transport feeding into a good DAC.
 
Very true. The other thing to consider when streaming would be format itself. Obviously I understand the original recording and all of that, but assuming all else being equivalent the format does become a factor. DSD for example... or even higher DSD, like DSD256 or DSD512. These take up far too much bandwidth to be able to practically stream. Therefore all of these discussions pretty much center around CD quality, or slightly higher resolutions from that. I put forth the proposition and question, do these lower resolutions truly allow for true audiophile comparisons in conjunction to streaming?

I have done comparisons, even MQA which its main practical use is to allow streaming slightly higher resolution without taking up too much bandwidth. A gentleman I know, David Elias worked for years in the high technology field. He was one of the first artist to fully embrace recording in the DSD format. He is also one of the first artist to fully embrace and support MQA, which he now offers his entire library in. As he has stated to me, DSD is the most "analog sounding" digital format. MQA is well equipped for streaming and use in portables players because of file size and bandwidth requirements while retaining better resolution performance. I think portable use of MQA is fairly negatable now since storage limits are not much of a factor any more. New portables can carry more than a TB of music with you.

I have all of David's albums recorded in DSD and his reworked versions to DSD512 (yes there is a difference). He also sent me his MQA versions of some of these albums to compare. In my view and to my ears the MQA versions sound better than the CD rips, but are far inferior to the DSD versions.

I compared these with my new portable. The Astell & Kern can play files up to DSD256 and fully unfolds MQA. It allows to use either ESS's new top of the line chips, the ES9068AS, or AKM's newest flagship the AK4499EQ. Therefore I was able to compare DSD versions and the MQA versions from an artist who fully embraces both technologies through two of the top DAC chip makers latest flagship products. I also used a balance Black Dragon cable and my Abyss Diana Phi cans which I will argue are as good as any headphone that can be used with a portable player.

Therefore the ability of being able to stream certain files are also a worthy consideration. :)... Just my two cents.
 
mep said:
Are you serious? I can't believe you are an engineer and you made that statement. We damn sure have figured out how to take measurements and prove that something works. It's called science. We even know how to measure the measurement devices and prove they are still accurate. It's called calibration and we actually have national calibration standards. We didn't send men to the moon based on feelings and hunches.
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yes, I am serious and there is no shame in admitting it. Moreover, I am not a manufacturer or a reviewer, so there is no lunch for me doing all these, neither its my job. There is definitely science behind it, its just that nobody has figured it out. FFT, Sinad and Jtest is not the end of the world. Anyway, I will keep it short and simple - I don't really think you understood any of it when you make a statement like that.
 
rbbert said:
First, it sounds as if your practical solution doesn't quite agree with the theoretical perspective from the first sentence. Second, it's hard to see how they would even theoretically sound the same since there is likely to be all sorts of switching noise and other grunge at the transmitting end (Tidal or Qobuz)
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I said theoretically because you are streaming the same bitstream from both the places. There is absolutely NO noise or grunge that is carried forward with the Tidal/Qobuz data stream (consider them audio packets), otherwise the world you have come to a scratching halt. Whoever is touting this is spreading misinformation!
 
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