DSD vs PCM as compared to what?

Mike

Mike

Audioshark
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My reel to reel arrived yesterday. It's a Technics 1500 which was purchased on eBay for $600 in June and spent the better part of 6 months being completely rebuilt by Jeff Jacobs. I spared no expense in the complete rebuild. Only the best parts were used. Myles was a big help in providing me with the roadmap and some tips. Thank you Myles. :) I will post pictures later.

One of the first tapes I played was the Jacintha - Here's to Ben which I purchased from Elusive Disc (discussion here: http://audioshark.org/general-audio-discussion-15/groove-note-reel-reel-5844.html#.VHCWJ5PF-N4). I listened to both tapes all the way through, then again another time. Then I thought, "wouldn't this be fun to compare to the DSD and PCM versions?" I figured I could get the sources in sync as close as possible and just switch between inputs. I got the volumes as close as possible and off I went.

As I began comparing my rather expensive copy of the master tape to the DSD to the PCM versions I have, I started thinking about all these DSD vs PCM debates. I can't even begin to think about the number of pages (print and online) that have been used to discuss the never ending debates on DSD vs PCM. As I sat there listening to the tape (and the DSD and PCM versions), I began thinking - why are we comparing DSD to PCM? Why compare DSD to PCM? What's the baseline? Shouldn't we be comparing DSD to the tape and PCM to the tape and determining which sounds closest?

Before I post any thoughts on the DSD vs tape and PCM vs tape (and maybe even vinyl vs tape), I want to get through some of my Tape Project tapes (the Tape Project).

I will say this much. The tapes sound splendid and unlike any other source. The sound is huge, warm and completely without fatigue.

....and all that fuss over DSD might just be warranted. :audiophile:

Mike
 
As we've discussed many times, different formats can all sound good. We have some digital that's amazing, some analog that's amazing. In the end, it's all about the recording and mastering process.

I don't care which format it is, if it sounds amazing, I'm in !!
 
Mike-I'm happy that you finally have your deck and you have been able to spin tape. I like your statement about why are we comparing DSD to PCM vs. comparing both to tape. Unfortunately, there aren't tons of cases where you can compare the digital files to tape. It's cool when you can because it places things into perspective as you have seen and heard.

As to your last teaser statement about the fuss over DSD, I have been saying for the last few years that to my ears, DSD sounds the most like analog out of the digital formats we commonly have to listen through. That's why I like it.
 
MDP said:
As we've discussed many times, different formats can all sound good. We have some digital that's amazing, some analog that's amazing. In the end, it's all about the recording and mastering process.

I don't care which format it is, if it sounds amazing, I'm in !!
Click to expand...

I agree 100% :audiophile:
 
That's been my contention for years! Should the fidelity be to the original recording or the master tape? Seems obvious to me.

Not to mention, the purest form of PCM or DSD is from an analog master. In a week or so, will be comparing some quad-DSD titles to the original master tapes.

As an aside, how many who say they've heard all formats -sound good, have actually heard 15 or 30 ips tape? Much less 1/2 inch tape.

In the end, opinions are great but I think the first requirement is for people to listen to all the different available formats eg. As Mark inferred those who denigrate analog based on a $300 '80s turntable.
 
Mike said:
My reel to reel arrived yesterday. It's a Technics 1500 which was purchased on eBay for $600 in June and spent the better part of 6 months being completely rebuilt by Jeff Jacobs. I spared no expense in the complete rebuild. Only the best parts were used. Myles was a big help in providing me with the roadmap and some tips. Thank you Myles. :) I will post pictures later.

One of the first tapes I played was the Jacintha - Here's to Ben which I purchased from Elusive Disc (discussion here: http://audioshark.org/general-audio-discussion-15/groove-note-reel-reel-5844.html#.VHCWJ5PF-N4). I listened to both tapes all the way through, then again another time. Then I thought, "wouldn't this be fun to compare to the DSD and PCM versions?" I figured I could get the sources in sync as close as possible and just switch between inputs. I got the volumes as close as possible and off I went.

As I began comparing my rather expensive copy of the master tape to the DSD to the PCM versions I have, I started thinking about all these DSD vs PCM debates. I can't even begin to think about the number of pages (print and online) that have been used to discuss the never ending debates on DSD vs PCM. As I sat there listening to the tape (and the DSD and PCM versions), I began thinking - why are we comparing DSD to PCM? Why compare DSD to PCM? What's the baseline? Shouldn't we be comparing DSD to the tape and PCM to the tape and determining which sounds closest?

Before I post any thoughts on the DSD vs tape and PCM vs tape (and maybe even vinyl vs tape), I want to get through some of my Tape Project tapes (the Tape Project).

I will say this much. The tapes sound splendid and unlike any other source. The sound is huge, warm and completely without fatigue.

....and all that fuss over DSD might just be warranted. :audiophile:

Mike
Click to expand...


Oh the days of reel to reel. I wish I still had my Tandberg TD 20 A-SE, 2-Track Reel to Reel Tape Recorder. I feel today that a good well maintained reel to reel is just like Mike noted.
The sound is huge, warm and completely without fatigue
Click to expand...
 
MDP said:
As we've discussed many times, different formats can all sound good. We have some digital that's amazing, some analog that's amazing. In the end, it's all about the recording and mastering process.

I don't care which format it is, if it sounds amazing, I'm in !!
Click to expand...

Yes, that's very true....but my point wasn't to discuss amazing recordings, it was to compare mediums and formats vs an established base line.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
mep said:
Mike-I'm happy that you finally have your deck and you have been able to spin tape. I like your statement about why are we comparing DSD to PCM vs. comparing both to tape. Unfortunately, there aren't tons of cases where you can compare the digital files to tape. It's cool when you can because it places things into perspective as you have seen and heard.

As to your last teaser statement about the fuss over DSD, I have been saying for the last few years that to my ears, DSD sounds the most like analog out of the digital formats we commonly have to listen through. That's why I like it.
Click to expand...

This was my thought as well.

Yes, it's too bad we don't have more cases to compare, but I will say, what we have will at least establish a base line for me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
mep said:
Mike-I'm happy that you finally have your deck and you have been able to spin tape. I like your statement about why are we comparing DSD to PCM vs. comparing both to tape. Unfortunately, there aren't tons of cases where you can compare the digital files to tape. It's cool when you can because it places things into perspective as you have seen and heard.

As to your last teaser statement about the fuss over DSD, I have been saying for the last few years that to my ears, DSD sounds the most like analog out of the digital formats we commonly have to listen through. That's why I like it.
Click to expand...

One possibility is of course like David Robinson is doing eg. Using the best A/D available and then doing the comparison. Otherwise, a label like Opus 3 or RR are the best sources for comparison.

I think the eternal question is how good a 21st century technology tape machine might sound.
 
Mike said:
This was my thought as well.

Yes, it's too bad we don't have more cases to compare, but I will say, what we have will at least establish a base line for me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Click to expand...

You could make your own 4 or 8x DSD recordings for comparison. Jeff Joseph was over two months ago and made some 24/192 copies off my tapes. He played them at two shows and sorry to say, wiped the floor with anything else he played - including other digital files. What piqued my interest is the my tape copies -among many things-were a 100 times more transparent than any other RBCD or hi-Rez file played. Inquiring minds need to know why. Of course the issue is just what are these studios, etc. using to make their releases.
 
Myles B. Astor said:
You could make your own 4 or 8x DSD recordings for comparison. Jeff Joseph was over two months ago and made some 24/192 copies off my tapes. He played them at two shows and sorry to say, wiped the floor with anything else he played - including other digital files. What piqued my interest is the my tape copies -among many things-were a 100 times more transparent than any other RBCD or hi-Rez file played. Inquiring minds need to know why. Of course the issue is just what are these studios, etc. using to make their releases.
Click to expand...

Now you've really got me thinking! The sound from tape is fuller and "rounder". I was listening to the tenor sax and on tape it just had this full, rounder, more three dimensional sound. It was really interesting.
 
Myles - keep in mind, this is only from the tape machines internal preamp. My deHavilland tape preamp has a problem with it and needs to go back. It's making an awful high pitched hum (even with no tape deck plugged into it).

I can only imagine tape through your tape preamp or the Doshi.
 
Mike said:
Now you've really got me thinking! The sound from tape is fuller and "rounder". I was listening to the tenor sax and on tape it just had this full, rounder, more three dimensional sound. It was really interesting.
Click to expand...

That's what analog does at its best. I call that density of information. Edges of instruments are tightly defined rather than blurred into the intervening space. It's also the ability to hear the direct vs, added reverb. The sense of a harmonic envelope surrounding the instrument. It's also that sempmse of ease. No matter how dynamic, and when you hear tape you realize how much every other medium is compressed, there's never any involuntary cringing. (That BTW is what separarates the men from the boys when it comes to phono sections.)
 
Myles B. Astor said:
One possibility is of course like David Robinson is doing eg. Using the best A/D available and then doing the comparison. Otherwise, a label like Opus 3 or RR are the best sources for comparison.

I think the eternal question is how good a 21st century technology tape machine might sound.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I don't think we will ever know. Even if someone spent the money on the R&D including all of the NRE to put it into production, I somehow can't see major recording studios giving up their digital toys and going back to analog.

Two recent examples of all analog LPs make for an interesting comparison. Lyn Stanley's new LP "Potions" vs. Paul Rogers "The Royal Sessions" were both recorded on analog tape and stayed in the analog domain all the way through the LP mastering. I feel like the Paul Rogers LP was a missed opportunity to allow analog to shine compared to the Lyn Stanley LP. Of course the Lyn Stanley LP is cut at 45 RPM over 4 sides, but that doesn't explain away the quality differences. I will put my 33 RPM test pressing of "Sonny Meets Hawk" against pretty much anything for pure realism, beauty of sound, tone, color, and dynamic punch that will knock your ass out of your listening chair.
 
MDP said:
As we've discussed many times, different formats can all sound good. We have some digital that's amazing, some analog that's amazing. In the end, it's all about the recording and mastering process.

I don't care which format it is, if it sounds amazing, I'm in !!
Click to expand...


+1 that's pretty much the way I feel. At the end, its all about the music regardless of format. But if everyone felt that way, there would be NO discussions, just boring music with robots setting around listening to music
 
Mike, really looking forward to your test results. Not sure if you have double or quad DSD files around, but that would definitely be fun to compare to! I think your S1 can play at least double DSD?
 
Mike said:
Myles - keep in mind, this is only from the tape machines internal preamp. My deHavilland tape preamp has a problem with it and needs to go back. It's making an awful high pitched hum (even with no tape deck plugged into it).

I can only imagine tape through your tape preamp or the Doshi.
Click to expand...

Ok well then break out the pampers.

BTW did the Dehavilland have a grounding lug for the tape heads?
 
I love my Ampex 350s and feel very lucky to own the clean pair that I have.
 
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