Budgeting your system

Devg said:
What were they playing at the LAAS with the YGs ? Its not like I care much but if they were playing a Select II, I will have a tough time even justifying the reason why one would put 90k on it....to my ears, the sound just didn't impress me, forget the price tag that comes along...
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There was a room with YG and SELECT II, but it was not ours, it was MSB's.

We had 3 other rooms of our own, all with YGs. I don't remember you introducing yourself, so I wouldn't know if I played you something in one of our rooms...
 
asiufy said:
There was a room with YG and SELECT II, but it was not ours, it was MSB's.

We had 3 other rooms of our own, all with YGs. I don't remember you introducing yourself, so I wouldn't know if I played you something in one of our rooms...
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Sorry, I wasn't clear...I was asking about the MSB room. I think I have listened to one of the YG/ARC/D'ag room which I liked better than the MSB room :-)
 
Devg said:
Sorry, I wasn't clear...I was asking about the MSB room. I think I have listened to one of the YG/ARC/D'ag room which I liked better than the MSB room :-)
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Yes, we've heard the same opinion from other people. We've had years of experience setting up YGs, and still we were not prepared for the absolutely sh*tt* rooms in that hotel. Still, we got decent sound. We used the Linn Klimax DSM in that particular room, which is my current 2nd fave digital (probably soon to be bumped to 3rd, given the MSB Reference...)

The MSB guys were struggling with the room as well, and opted for a nearfield presentation, which has its pros and cons...

If you want, send me an email and I can let you know once we have either the Reference or the SELECT in the store, and you're welcome to stop by!


cheers,
alex
 
a.wayne said:
100K worth of cables ...... Is that with launch and traction control ..?



:)
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The system is tri-amplified , so it has an active crossover after the preamp, in this case as you, know there is a lot of power cables and speaker cables as you can see in the next video. I can assure you the result is outstanding. If you listen to these cables you will understand.

 
I think it all comes down on the room and the preferred music.

I have a relatively small room (20 square meters/60 cubic meters) so despite the room treatment with several absorbers and diffusors, bigger speaker than mine would be counter productive (e.g. in the Gauder range the bigger RC8 and RC9). I guess the same holds true for many others who prefer stand-mount speakers to big floorstanders.

Given that the split of my system is (based on list-price):

LS
28%​
AMP
37%​
CDP
17%​
cables
14%​
power conditioner
2%​
rack
3%​

I decided to spend more on the amplification after I heard the big impact on the sound very good amplification has. So if you like the sound of your speakers, you can happily invest in top-notch amplification.
 
kzhtoo said:
If you had said this instead of your preceding post, I probably would have agreed with you.



No, I haven't heard the SELECT II. But I'm sure it's 9 times better than Chord DAVE and 5 times better than Berkeley Ref2.
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I won't say the Select II is X times better than any DAC. What I can say is the Dave and Berkeley Ref 2 aren't even playing in the same sandbox as the MSB unit yet they both compete nicely with other DAC's at their price point. They also sound very different from each other.
 
still-one said:
I won't say the Select II is X times better than any DAC. What I can say is the Dave and Berkeley Ref 2 aren't even playing in the same sandbox as the MSB unit yet they both compete nicely with other DAC's at their price point. They also sound very different from each other.
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I totally agree with Jim. I've done lengthy auditions of the MSB Select II DAC and Berkeley Ref2 DAC and the Select II is on an entirely different level. It doesn't sound like digital, vinyl or tape, it sounds like live music. The Berkeley Ref2 is very organic sounding, to the point you're looking for the tubes! In fact, I liked it so much, I'm getting it with the latest MQA upgrade.

Ken
 
Alpinist said:
I totally agree with Jim. I've done lengthy auditions of the MSB Select II DAC and Berkeley Ref2 DAC and the Select II is on an entirely different level. It doesn't sound like digital, vinyl or tape, it sounds like live music. The Berkeley Ref2 is very organic sounding, to the point you're looking for the tubes! In fact, I liked it so much, I'm getting it with the latest MQA upgrade.

Ken
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well said Ken.

I compare the Select II to my vinyl and tape and while it's different, it's also does better in unique ways than any other digital in my experience. it's a breed apart.

a price/value plot is a curve of diminishing returns, not a straight line. which is true of any and all luxury, high performance models/products of anything you can think of. you pay increasing amounts for smaller incremental steps up in performance. and sometimes better performance can be had for less, although not typically. as individuals we decide where on that curve we enter, and then view the curve from our spot.

if you are seeking a doubling of performance (very hard to define in high end audio listening) with a doubling of price, that is not too real a goal.

in F1 racing, a tenth of a second or three better a lap might cost a billion or 2, after you already spent your first billion....but it wins you the chanpionship. is that worth it?

I voted with my pocketbook with the Select II, and while it does not better other products by the price ratio, it does seem to go places I've not heard other digital go. is that important to everyone equally? apparently, and not unsurprisingly not. is there any universal truth which we can all agree on about performance. that will never happen, unless we go racing.
 
Mike Lavigne said:
well said Ken.

I compare the Select II to my vinyl and tape and while it's different, it's also does better in unique ways than any other digital in my experience. it's a breed apart.

a price/value plot is a curve of diminishing returns, not a straight line. which is true of any and all luxury, high performance models/products of anything you can think of. you pay increasing amounts for smaller incremental steps up in performance. and sometimes better performance can be had for less, although not typically. as individuals we decide where on that curve we enter, and then view the curve from our spot.

if you are seeking a doubling of performance (very hard to define in high end audio listening) with a doubling of price, that is not too real a goal.

in F1 racing, a tenth of a second or three better a lap might cost a billion or 2, after you already spent your first billion....but it wins you the chanpionship. is that worth it?

I voted with my pocketbook with the Select II, and while it does not better other products by the price ratio, it does seem to go places I've not heard other digital go. is that important to everyone equally? apparently, and not unsurprisingly not. is there any universal truth which we can all agree on about performance. that will never happen, unless we go racing.
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Hi Mike,

I couldn't agree more with your price/performance curve comments. Incremental improvements become smaller and smaller as you go up the price ladder. Normally, these incremental improvements high up on the price ladder would not interest me. I've heard my share of incremental improvement on DACs and it's usually pretty easy to pick a price cutoff point. For me, it's around $20K. But for some reason, with the MSB Select II, this all goes out the window.

The reason is the Select II sounds fundamentally different from any other DAC I've ever heard, regardless of price. It just sounds and flows like live music. The other DACs sound great but don't take me to that place. Hard to put a price on that. The Select II is the only DAC that could be the anchor component of my system.

Ken
 
Maybe I should listen to the MSB again, if I get the chance. A while back I was at a show.

Speakres: Tidal Piano G2
DAC: MSB Select II with all the bell an whistles. Was about 150k euro DAC
Amps: Thrax Heros Mono
Source: Aurender X100 I think.

But it was all mediocre sounding. Dull and flat. There were systems costing less then half that sounded better.
 
Alpinist said:
Hi Mike,

I couldn't agree more with your price/performance curve comments. Incremental improvements become smaller and smaller as you go up the price ladder. Normally, these incremental improvements high up on the price ladder would not interest me. I've heard my share of incremental improvement on DACs and it's usually pretty easy to pick a price cutoff point. For me, it's around $20K. But for some reason, with the MSB Select II, this all goes out the window.

The reason is the Select II sounds fundamentally different from any other DAC I've ever heard, regardless of price. It just sounds and flows like live music. The other DACs sound great but don't take me to that place. Hard to put a price on that. The Select II is the only DAC that could be the anchor component of my system.

Ken
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No one needs an audio Pie chart for a 90K DAC , I'm thinking Portfolio for sure .. :)
 
Mordante said:
Maybe I should listen to the MSB again, if I get the chance. A while back I was at a show.

Speakres: Tidal Piano G2
DAC: MSB Select II with all the bell an whistles. Was about 150k euro DAC
Amps: Thrax Heros Mono
Source: Aurender X100 I think.

But it was all mediocre sounding. Dull and flat. There were systems costing less then half that sounded better.
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Vince set up the room at Axpona 2017 and the sound was outstanding.

Source: MSB Select II DAC
Amps: MSB M204 Monoblocks
Speakers: YG Acoustics Sonja 1.2
Cables: Analysis Audio
Power Conditioner: AudioQuest Niagara 7000

Ken
 
Alpinist said:
Vince set up the room at Axpona 2017 and the sound was outstanding.

Source: MSB Select II DAC
Amps: MSB M204 Monoblocks
Speakers: YG Acoustics Sonja 1.2
Cables: Analysis Audio
Power Conditioner: AudioQuest Niagara 7000

Ken
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I think the lack of a decent pre/amp killed the sound when I heard it.
 
Mikado463 said:
LOL, 2/3 of the price in ones system for wire .............that's nuts !!
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OK...OK under normal circumstances, you would be right, but this is not an ordinary system, but, let me explain.
In normal circumstances lets say ... for systems under € 50,000 you would be right, but don't forget that we are talking about a system that costs € 150,000, in fact, after my post I talked to the owner and to be precise It costs € 180,000.


As you know any system plays as much as it's weakest link, and I should say that all the electronics was upgraded with Mundorf capacitors, improved shielding agains RFI and EMY, all the transformers were soaked in resin, just to mention a few. We can say that all the electronics are well above it´s price range.


The use of some of the bests anti-vibration systems put the system in a higher level, CD player and Pré sits in it's own vibration control platform (air system) and the power racks too. Between the equipment chassis and the platform were used VCS to control vibrations.
In this case though the electronics are not so expensive, they are at the highest level and with the best fuses that money can buy (in my opinion).


The speakers are the result of 17 years of development paying attention to every detail, cabinet rigidity and proper weigh, interface between drivers and cabinet, passive systems inside to reduce vibration, appropriate outer shape to reduce diffraction, and many others.


All the system was tuned by it's owner that is a big expert in audio.
When you do this for your system...


The cables are the result of 17 years of development and research, that already won several prizes and have benn used in the best system always with outstanding results.
Thats why the systems sounds so good and has this price relation between the different parts of this audio system.


The secret is to improve the weakest link to the highest level. The Knowledge is to know wich is the weakest link. It's just my own opinion.
 
Mike said:
Do you agree with this ratio?

50de783e2489042c02a786cf223086dc.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Hi Mike.

I don't considere the same proportion. I'll post mine when i could.
 
41.8% Speaker
14.3% Source
10.8% Pre
22.7% Power
10.4% Cables

My pre is out of of wack and I know it's the weak part of my system now. I guess I better start saving for a C1100.
 
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