Are subwoofers bad for music?
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the professor
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In a couple of shows in the past where Wilson brought their Thor subs, they did a good job integrating them.
Hi Jock,
Did Wilson have the Thor’s with the Alexandria XLF this year at Axpona?
Ken
the professor
Well-known member
I don't think so. They had them at RMAF a couple years ago or Axpona 2017 tho.
All the shows run together. I go to too many.
All the shows run together. I go to too many.
the professor
Well-known member
I know what you mean. We are a ridiculous bunch. But . . . . to get the most out of the speakers, they do need the subs.
Joseph R.
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Really Jock !!! I would love to know why you feel a speaker is never complete without a subwoofer ? Or are you only talking about the Alexandria XLF’s ? If this is so, it does not fair well for Wilson. Are they so far up in their ivory tower ?
kzhtoo
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Subs are better for low bass than the speakers (assuming only 2 towers), regardless of $100k or $1k, simply because left and right speaker positions may not be optimal for low bass for a particular room response. Besides, you need that massive amount of power to produce low bass and unless it’s a powered version like Vandy Model 7, it’s just not going to cut it. So, my take is subs aren’t a must, but they can certainly enhance your music listening experience.
Agree with what Mike said above about Magico and JL, my S3s and JL F113v2 integrate seamlessly.
Agree with what Mike said above about Magico and JL, my S3s and JL F113v2 integrate seamlessly.
Joseph R.
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Uncle.....
Jim Smith
Member
Although not every set-up I have done needed subs, over 90% profited by having them, and very often, it was the large (expensive) "full-range" loudspeakers that profited most.
Done properly, it's rarely so much about the bass as it is about an increased sense of presence, of the musicians being present in the room, or you are more immersed into the event at the concert venue.
When I hear someone complaining about the subs not working well with a system, I find I always agree.
Why? The subs were not properly integrated with the mains.
Why? Most times, when the mains are set up for optimum musical engagement - dynamics, presence & tone are good - that is not where the deeper bass is smoothest or deepest in the room. Done properly, locating the mains for best performance is the only way you have any hope of integrating the subs properly. If the mains are uneven through the bass, how will you ever get the subs to blend flawlessly?
If you find that you occasionally want to go over & readjust the subs for a piece of music, then you have more work to do.
Note that I say subs - not sub. I used to advise my retail stereo clients to save their money until they could afford to buy two subs. IMO, one sub is generally worse than none.
If you are interested, I wrote a seven part series for Copper e-mag about subs - SUBWOOFERY.
It expounds on these ideas & more.
metaphacts
New member
Finally. Thank you Jim.
Jim, thanks for the post and I totally agree. My new T3's speakers go down to 24hz and put out some nice low end bass. However, I found that my dual subs add presence to the music. I plugged the bottom of the 3 woofer ports in the T3's and added my subs and the speakers sound smoother and better. The music has more emotion , depth and sound stage. The subs integrate seamlessly.
Your post just confirms what I hear.
Larry
Your post just confirms what I hear.
Larry
the professor
Well-known member
It's not just me ----
If Wilson didn't think their sub added to their speakers they wouldn't show with them when showing the best they have to offer. Magico wouldn't display their subs if they didn't think they didn't improve the sound of their speakers. Avant Garde has different sub options for their top of the line speakers (trios) all the way up to 6 subs, they obviously think that subs improve the sound.
Again - no system needs a sub to be outstanding. But as an audiophile - almost by definition - we try to get the absolute best from a system. Subs are part of this. Just like a great power distribution system is. Or cables.
Some systems probably aren't helped by a sub. Von Schweikert top of the line Ultra 11s are an example ($300,000). They are always voted as one of the best at shows. There are numerous systems like this one out there.
If Wilson didn't think their sub added to their speakers they wouldn't show with them when showing the best they have to offer. Magico wouldn't display their subs if they didn't think they didn't improve the sound of their speakers. Avant Garde has different sub options for their top of the line speakers (trios) all the way up to 6 subs, they obviously think that subs improve the sound.
Again - no system needs a sub to be outstanding. But as an audiophile - almost by definition - we try to get the absolute best from a system. Subs are part of this. Just like a great power distribution system is. Or cables.
Some systems probably aren't helped by a sub. Von Schweikert top of the line Ultra 11s are an example ($300,000). They are always voted as one of the best at shows. There are numerous systems like this one out there.
2FlyingYorkies
Member
Though from what I recall, even VSA has always shown those Ultra 11's (which have internally powered subs) with a pair or more of their largest stand-alone subs as part of the rig. Sure, those extra subs are playing intentionally out of phase to tame the bass in the show venue, but they're still present to make the big towers sound their best.
Joseph R.
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So except for me, it seems the general concensus is subwoofers are good for almost all speaker systems. Whether they are good for music may (or may not ) be another story. If I were a manufacturer catering mostly to rich clients, there is no doubt I would pair my quarter of a million dollar TOTL speaker with another quarter of a million dollar subwoofer. But is it remotely possible that this could lead me to design a speaker system that would benefit from a sub of my own design ? Could this be nothing short of a marketing tool ? Just some hypotheticals.
I heard some live music yesterday. The bass player had two instuments on stage. A standup bass and a Fender bass guitar. During the show he never picked up the standup acoustic bass. There was no doulbt in my mind that there was too much bass in the mix. At one time the bass was an accompanying instument. Jack Bruce and others have since made it a “lead instument”. Just as an aside, the lowest note of a bass guitar is 40hz. Playing professional guitar for years, I am enamored by tasty bass players who comprise a rhythm section. As with any musician, playing as a band member and not a solo act is what I look for and enjoy.
It seems to me that the audiophile community is moving in the same general direction. As I visit other people’s systems it is common place for more and more subs to be added to their systems. Like Avant Garde, Scana and other high end manufacturers “the more the merrier”. I have heard systems with six to eight subwoofers. And sometimes placed in rooms other than the main listening room. If audiophiles enjoy this, so be it. After all this hobby is for enjoyment purposes. But I also must stand my ground. For me bass is the flavoring of music and not the main event. Just like drums or cannons. I enjoy listening to true acoustic bass much more than electronic bass guitar bass. The analogy of “playing like a band member” holds true for a speaker system. It is more important to me to have a seemless integrated speaker system than to single out great anything (like bass or high frequencies). For me a speaker designer that does that is what I look for. And to do this in a domestic environment is also important. My modest sound room could never accomodate stereo cannons of the 1812 overture. I would never expect any room of my house to.
To each his own.
I heard some live music yesterday. The bass player had two instuments on stage. A standup bass and a Fender bass guitar. During the show he never picked up the standup acoustic bass. There was no doulbt in my mind that there was too much bass in the mix. At one time the bass was an accompanying instument. Jack Bruce and others have since made it a “lead instument”. Just as an aside, the lowest note of a bass guitar is 40hz. Playing professional guitar for years, I am enamored by tasty bass players who comprise a rhythm section. As with any musician, playing as a band member and not a solo act is what I look for and enjoy.
It seems to me that the audiophile community is moving in the same general direction. As I visit other people’s systems it is common place for more and more subs to be added to their systems. Like Avant Garde, Scana and other high end manufacturers “the more the merrier”. I have heard systems with six to eight subwoofers. And sometimes placed in rooms other than the main listening room. If audiophiles enjoy this, so be it. After all this hobby is for enjoyment purposes. But I also must stand my ground. For me bass is the flavoring of music and not the main event. Just like drums or cannons. I enjoy listening to true acoustic bass much more than electronic bass guitar bass. The analogy of “playing like a band member” holds true for a speaker system. It is more important to me to have a seemless integrated speaker system than to single out great anything (like bass or high frequencies). For me a speaker designer that does that is what I look for. And to do this in a domestic environment is also important. My modest sound room could never accomodate stereo cannons of the 1812 overture. I would never expect any room of my house to.
To each his own.
Aside from providing the lowest notes, subwoofers can help even out the bass in a room, fix many node issues and providing a fuller lower midrange to boot. Believe it or not, there is a lot going on down there and you will never hear it, if you don’t have a subwoofer capable of hitting the lowest of lows.
For anyone who has the Chris Jones Album called Roadhouses and Automobiles, track #2 entitled Thank You RJ Reynolds is a great example. At the end of the song, he sings “and I’ll see you in hell”. 99.9% of the speakers out there will just merrily play along and you will have no clue what you’re missing. Once you add a pair of subs (one is rarely ideal), you will jump out of your seat playing the end of that song. “I’ll see you in hell”. BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! Other than my Avantgarde’s, I have NEVER heard any other speaker reproduce this affect without the use of a subwoofer. My AG’s go down to 18hz and have no issues.
On another track, like the first track on Andrea Bocelli’s album Passione, during the beginning of the first song, there are many low notes which are just not reproduced without the use of a sub and trust me, it takes away from the whole experience of the song.
Now integration of subs is a whole ‘nother story. It takes time and tremendous patience. But it can be very rewarding.
For anyone who has the Chris Jones Album called Roadhouses and Automobiles, track #2 entitled Thank You RJ Reynolds is a great example. At the end of the song, he sings “and I’ll see you in hell”. 99.9% of the speakers out there will just merrily play along and you will have no clue what you’re missing. Once you add a pair of subs (one is rarely ideal), you will jump out of your seat playing the end of that song. “I’ll see you in hell”. BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! Other than my Avantgarde’s, I have NEVER heard any other speaker reproduce this affect without the use of a subwoofer. My AG’s go down to 18hz and have no issues.
On another track, like the first track on Andrea Bocelli’s album Passione, during the beginning of the first song, there are many low notes which are just not reproduced without the use of a sub and trust me, it takes away from the whole experience of the song.
Now integration of subs is a whole ‘nother story. It takes time and tremendous patience. But it can be very rewarding.