Are audio reviewers biased or incredibly biased?

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Myles, for me. reviewing always caused a dilemma: should a reviewer use the DUT with the best ancillaries, so as to stress out the differences due to the DUT only, without any extraneous limitations, or should he set it in a well matched system within a commensurate price bracket, to show what can be expected by real-life users?
I had four pairs of Dynaudio speakers and I know for a fact that these require a much more capable amplifier than their price would suggest (and than "standard wisdom" in cost distribution between components recommends).

So when you - that's a generic "you", of course - tell me a pair of $3000 speakers really came to life when fed by Boulder 2001 monoblocks... well, that's as relevant as saying McDonald fries are wonderful with a dip of belluga caviar: I still have no clue as to how they taste with the usual ketchup or BBQ sauce.
 
iosiP said:
Myles, for me. reviewing always caused a dilemma: should a reviewer use the DUT with the best ancillaries, so as to stress out the differences due to the DUT only, without any extraneous limitations, or should he set it in a well matched system within a commensurate price bracket, to show what can be expected by real-life users?
I had four pairs of Dynaudio speakers and I know for a fact that these require a much more capable amplifier than their price would suggest (and than "standard wisdom" in cost distribution between components recommends).

So when you - that's a generic "you", of course - tell me a pair of $3000 speakers really came to life when fed by Boulder 2001 monoblocks... well, that's as relevant as saying McDonald fries are wonderful with a dip of belluga caviar: I still have no clue as to how they taste with the usual ketchup or BBQ sauce.
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When I review, I view my job as listening to the product under the best possible conditions and circumstances. That's what I owe to the manufacturer.

IMHO, mixing and matching stuff is the surest path to disastrous results. Don't you want to find a product that will work in more than less systems?

I think in the end it comes down to one's system building philosophy and there's something to be said for both. Do you want to build beginning at the front end or begin building with the speakers? I'd proffer that it's important to know whether a product has a "ceiling" or whether it continues to improve as the system improves. Sort of like the best recordings. The better the system, the more you hear on the recording. That's opposed to those recordings that as the system gets better, there's no further sonic improvement.
 
Reviewers aren't necessarily biased. They are just victims of their own reality.

Most reviewers are in it for the free gear and adulation. Because most reviewers are looting gear they couldn't otherwise afford, they have little incentive to make their systems perform best. They usually have awful rooms, little knowledge concerning room acoustics and speaker set up.

Michael.
 
dallasjustice said:
Reviewers aren't necessarily biased. They are just victims of their own reality.

Most reviewers are in it for the free gear and adulation. Because most reviewers are looting gear they couldn't otherwise afford, they have little incentive to make their systems perform best. They usually have awful rooms, little knowledge concerning room acoustics and speaker set up.

Michael.
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Michael
You are painting with some pretty large brush strokes there aren't you?
 
I have no definitive answer to the "source to speakers" or "speakers to source" conundrum: I think the total amount of finance available dictates the approach (but explaining this would be too far off-topic, and a rather long discussion).

Referring to your answer, I realize the manufacturer is glad his product was "made to sing", but I was mostly referring to the potential buyers: what information can they gather from the fact that a particular TT with a cost of $2000 would greatly improve when (and only when) used with a $3000 Silent-Base Superpro platform? Do you really think anyone would buy this combo instead of a $5000 TT that is (almost) imune to vibrations?

Of course, I understand your position: if my next purchase is just a step on the path to a better (and much more expensive) system I would certainly like to know if my speakers are "upgrade proof". But then, some people just want to listen to music and do not care about how a specific piece of equipment behaves in a system that costs multiples of what they can afford. Yes you can examine that, but I think it is also your duty to cater to those readers that have no intention of feeding their $3.000 B&W speakers through $15.000 Odin cables.

Just my $0.02.
 
still-one said:
Michael
You are painting with some pretty large brush strokes there aren't you?
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The one thing all reviewers have in common is that they mostly listen to great gear for extended periods of time for free.

No. I am not being unfair in describing the underlying problem with taking reviewers seriously.
 
dallasjustice said:
Reviewers aren't necessarily biased. They are just victims of their own reality.

Most reviewers are in it for the free gear and adulation. Because most reviewers are looting gear they couldn't otherwise afford, they have little incentive to make their systems perform best. They usually have awful rooms, little knowledge concerning room acoustics and speaker set up.

Michael.
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Wow Michael, just above your post Miles made a comment (and those earlier in the thread) that told me he is thoughtful, conscientious, and diligent when it comes to reviewing gear. He mentioned several others who he feels treat their chosen field with equal professionalism. Sure there are rat-bastards and scoundrels in every endeavor, but to categorically put them all in the same bucket is nonsense, and is likely based on rumor, opinion, and hearsay, the lowest forms of knowledge.

Go watch the 1/2 summary video of the recent show in Chicago. Those two gentlemen didn't sound like they had a particular prejudice towards any manufacturer, but were sharing their impressions of what they heard. As many have said, some reviewers are worth listening to, others not so much. But I believe many are like Miles. Sometimes you have to read a review carefully, as occasionally a unit is damned with faint praise. Perhaps the reviewer chose in that case the more diplomatic approach, for one reason or another.

But your comments directly contradict those of Miles, whom I would guess has more direct experience with reviewers than most of us here in the Shark Tank.
 
dallasjustice said:
The one thing all reviewers have in common is that they mostly listen to great gear for extended periods of time for free.

No. I am not being unfair in describing the underlying problem with taking reviewers seriously.
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They usually have awful rooms, little knowledge concerning room acoustics and speaker set up.

I guess then some like Jacob Heilbrunn are the exceptions when they own great gear in well thought out (but not perfect) rooms?
wilsonjn.jpg

Wilson3(1).jpg


I am not sure what his current set-up is but I believe he has swapped out the X2's for XLF and now has Thors Hammer(s).
 
Bobvin said:
Wow Michael, just above your post Miles made a comment (and those earlier in the thread) that told me he is thoughtful, conscientious, and diligent when it comes to reviewing gear. He mentioned several others who he feels treat their chosen field with equal professionalism. Sure there are rat-bastards and scoundrels in every endeavor, but to categorically put them all in the same bucket is nonsense, and is likely based on rumor, opinion, and hearsay, the lowest forms of knowledge.

Go watch the 1/2 summary video of the recent show in Chicago. Those two gentlemen didn't sound like they had a particular prejudice towards any manufacturer, but were sharing their impressions of what they heard. As many have said, some reviewers are worth listening to, others not so much. But I believe many are like Miles. Sometimes you have to read a review carefully, as occasionally a unit is damned with faint praise. Perhaps the reviewer chose in that case the more diplomatic approach, for one reason or another.

But your comments directly contradict those of Miles, whom I would guess has more direct experience with reviewers than most of us here in the Shark Tank.
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Myles is familiar with my perspective. I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't any reviewer who would agree with me. The good news is that most folks no longer need to rely on reviewers very much.
 
iosiP said:
I have no definitive answer to the "source to speakers" or "speakers to source" conundrum: I think the total amount of finance available dictates the approach (but explaining this would be too far off-topic, and a rather long discussion).
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Absolutely. Too many see the world in B/W terms and not in shades of grey! A system has to have some sort of reasonable monetary balance.

Referring to your answer, I realize the manufacturer is glad his product was "made to sing", but I was mostly referring to the potential buyers: what information can they gather from the fact that a particular TT with a cost of $2000 would greatly improve when (and only when) used with a $3000 Silent-Base Superpro platform? Do you really think anyone would buy this combo instead of a $5000 TT that is (almost) imune to vibrations?

Of course, I understand your position: if my next purchase is just a step on the path to a better (and much more expensive) system I would certainly like to know if my speakers are "upgrade proof". But then, some people just want to listen to music and do not care about how a specific piece of equipment behaves in a system that costs multiples of what they can afford. Yes you can examine that, but I think it is also your duty to cater to those readers that have no intention of feeding their $3.000 B&W speakers through $15.000 Odin cables.

Just my $0.02.
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I think you made a good point but that is kinda of an extreme example. :) That said, even a $5000 or $150,000 table is far from immune to vibrations and I don't think there's a table out there, even the AF1 (see the Herzan thread on WBF), whose sound isn't further improved sitting on some sort of isolation base. :(

I don't think too many reviewers would use solely Odin (if that) on a $3000 speaker (of course Carl Marchisotta like to use the top of the line Nordost SC with his $10,000 speakers at shows!). Plus most reviewers usually have a couple of sets of say SCs in house in order to review speakers.

But again, my point is rather that a reviewer needs to know what component in the system contributes to a particular issue whether it be dynamics, tonality, frequency extension, soundstaging, etc. There's nothing worse than blaming the wrong component for a given issue. But your point is well taken and it's a Catch-22 in my book.
 
Myles B. Astor said:
Don't you want to find a product that will work in more than less systems?
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Well this is exactly my point: when a reviewer says the DUT gave best results with a specific amp (or cables, or platform, or... well, you name it) it only shows that product is not versatile enough to be used in a "regular" system. And this is especially valid if the cables, platform etc. cost far more than the regular customer for the DUT is supposed to shell.
All products cut some corners in order to be manufactured and sold at a specific MSRP. Some are less well isolated from external vibrations, some would not react well to power line variations and some would just put extra requirements on ancillary equipment. Now if you want to "restore" the cut corners you can always stack the DUT on top of expensive anti-vibration platforms, feed it regenerated AC and make sure all ancillaries are impedance-matched... But then you're not talking about the performance of a $4.000 power amp but about that of a $10.000 amp+platform+line conditioner combo, which is misleading (to put it gently).
As for your "duty" towards manufacturers? Well, I'm stupid enough to think your main duty is toward your readers... At least, if you want them to go on reading. If not...

P.S. My examples were generic: you can freely substitute top of the line AQs, Ansuz or MIT - it's not the brand, it's just the price! Furthermore, I must abmit I'm not into vinyl so I don't care if a specific TT is more prone to vibratiaons than another - once again, it was just an example!
 
dallasjustice said:
Myles is familiar with my perspective. I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't any reviewer who would agree with me. The good news is that most folks no longer need to rely on reviewers very much.
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I'm not so sure I agree 100% with that. Sure, you can find plenty of feedback and opinions on the web nowadays, but how many are as articulate and descriptive as a professional reviewer's sonic description? (I know, there are lame examples from some reviewers, but taken as whole...). Many on the web will describe the effect it has on them, declare it the best or worst they've ever heard without ever really describing why.

I don't begrudge any reviewer getting a good deal on gear they review. I don't begrudge any reviewer for any bias they may possess. I do begrudge the reviewer whose biases are based on the good deal. Unfortunately I don't know if I can tell the difference.:S

I don't envy the reviewer's position. The manufacturer sees them as an advocate for their product (especially if they advertise); the consumer sees them as an advocate for the listener, helping them separate the wheat from the chaff; and the industry needs them to be the advocate for the industry as whole, otherwise this great hobby will die if we don't continue to buy the new gear that keeps the manufacturers alive. Glowing review or scouring review, it is met with cynicism or vitriol.:what:

I do use professional reviews to help me understand the sonic characteristics of a piece of gear, its synergy with other possible gear, as well as it's electrical properties. But I stay away from the hyperbole that often accompanies these reviews.


Just my $.02.
 
socfan12 said:
I'm not so sure I agree 100% with that. Sure, you can find plenty of feedback and opinions on the web nowadays, but how many are as articulate and descriptive as a professional reviewer's sonic description? (I know, there are lame examples from some reviewers, but taken as whole...). Many on the web will describe the effect it has on them, declare it the best or worst they've ever heard without ever really describing why.

I don't begrudge any reviewer getting a good deal on gear they review. I don't begrudge any reviewer for any bias they may possess. I do begrudge the reviewer whose biases are based on the good deal. Unfortunately I don't know if I can tell the difference.:S

I don't envy the reviewer's position. The manufacturer sees them as an advocate for their product (especially if they advertise); the consumer sees them as an advocate for the listener, helping them separate the wheat from the chaff; and the industry needs them to be the advocate for the industry as whole, otherwise this great hobby will die if we don't continue to buy the new gear that keeps the manufacturers alive. Glowing review or scouring review, it is met with cynicism or vitriol.:what:

I do use professional reviews to help me understand the sonic characteristics of a piece of gear, its synergy with other possible gear, as well as it's electrical properties. But I stay away from the hyperbole that often accompanies these reviews.


Just my $.02.
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If you feel the need to rely on someone else's opinion, I suggest you find a hand full of dealers you respect. Dealers have to put their money where their mouth is. Consequently, the good ones are far more trustworthy than the looters.
 
NorthStar said:
What is DUT by the way, if I may ask? ...And pardon my ignorance.
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Device Under Test, i.e. the stuff reviewers receive and is installed by the manufacturer, replaced if defective and duly revised by the makers, just to make sure they perform well!
Nothing to do with DYG, i.e. Device You Get if buying a standard issue of the DUT.
 
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