Mike Gillespie
New member
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2013
- Messages
- 19
JL Audio is coming out with a crossover (all analog) that will be significantly less list price than the Bryston, and they say it will have far more features.
2 channel system and subs.
- Thread starter KingRT10
- Start date
It's about time! Thanks for the heads up Mike!
the professor
Active member
Thats great.
Great thread, First post. I'm using two REL subs connected via their speakon cables. I'm one of those guys who tacked subs onto full range speakers and is happy with the results. I want to know more about the importance of using an active crossover. Some speaker manufactures are designing built in subs. I recently heard some Vandersteen's (don't remember the model but they were about $45k) and they sounded amazing. Are they using active crossovers built into the cabinets?
PS Im also running Dirac Live room correction.
PS Im also running Dirac Live room correction.
Hi Rick - welcome!
My understanding of the Vandy 7's (probably what you heard) is that they do have an active crossover and a class-d amp to handle the subs built into the speakers. There are many excellent active crossovers on the market today. Bryston makes one. Pass makes one. There are many others. There is even a bass management function built into the Classe CP-800 preamp which might fit the bill for you.
That being said, it is my understanding that REL subs have an active crossover built in. Perhaps I'm wrong....but I think that's how they integrate.
If I was buying subs today - it would be REL.
Mike
radioactive
New member
I don't agree. I found active crossovers remind me of digital room correction from the likes of Anthem's ARC and McIntosh's RP. Not bad, but definitely not good. Dynamics were squashed, and music just lost its realism.
I use two F110's with my Sasha's and am getting great results without active crossovers in the way.
Just goes to show, before believing everything is absolute, you should hear for yourself. Not everyone's preferences are the same.
I use two F110's with my Sasha's and am getting great results without active crossovers in the way.
Just goes to show, before believing everything is absolute, you should hear for yourself. Not everyone's preferences are the same.
After adding a second sub I became convinced stereo subs will be with me for life. The subs added so much more than bass. I'm getting better depth, air, punch, and sweetness throughout. They let me get away with smaller speakers, they help compensate for room problems, and they add flexibility with speaker placement. The thought of having to use an active crossover is messing up my game plan. I just don't want another component with things to adjust. Everyone loves their JL subs but I see a lot of people having trouble integrating without the active crossover. Radioactive you keep the dream alive.
radioactive
New member
I don't know about "everyone" having problems integrating their JL's. Personally, it took some trial and error, but once I got it set to what I liked, I haven't even touched my JL's. I've had many friends over to listen and they loved the way they integrated, and I personally am happy. So much so, that I no longer have the itch to upgrade to Wilson Maxx 3's (or even a used pair of Alexandria's).
If you follow Paul McGowan's posts on PS you'll see I'm not in the minority. Paul himself has found the same thing I have to be true and that's adding active crossovers aren't the best approach to integrating a sub into your system. Don't just take my word for it, take a read for yourself:
Subs | PS Audio
And...
Your mileage may vary | PS Audio
These are very good discussions on the topic of trying to integrate a Sub, and Paul has done a great job of writing all the issues down and explaining his point(s).
I think the point is to also listen for yourself -- you be the judge. It might be an expensive experience if you can't get a loaner like I did. But I didn't like the results of active crossover(s).
Bryan
If you follow Paul McGowan's posts on PS you'll see I'm not in the minority. Paul himself has found the same thing I have to be true and that's adding active crossovers aren't the best approach to integrating a sub into your system. Don't just take my word for it, take a read for yourself:
Subs | PS Audio
And...
Your mileage may vary | PS Audio
These are very good discussions on the topic of trying to integrate a Sub, and Paul has done a great job of writing all the issues down and explaining his point(s).
I think the point is to also listen for yourself -- you be the judge. It might be an expensive experience if you can't get a loaner like I did. But I didn't like the results of active crossover(s).
Bryan
the professor
Active member
I think that people sometimes get talking about active or not active when almost all subs use an active crossover --- the discussion is really whether or not to use a high pass filter to eliminate the lows in the main speakers or to run them full range.
Powered subs (99%) use an active crossover because they filter out the high freq before the amp built in.
I use a separate active crossover because it gives me quite a bit more control of the sub to better integrate. However, I choose not use the high pass part to roll off the main speakers because I find that it sounds better. I run the full signal to the main speakers.
Powered subs (99%) use an active crossover because they filter out the high freq before the amp built in.
I use a separate active crossover because it gives me quite a bit more control of the sub to better integrate. However, I choose not use the high pass part to roll off the main speakers because I find that it sounds better. I run the full signal to the main speakers.
radioactive
New member
The discussion is using something like the Bryston 10B and sending the high pass to your mains. From there either sending the low pass to your sub, or using the sub's internal crossover is not the discussion, though it's an interesting topic.
Which is better, the sound of JL's through their own internal crossover and correction or that when driven via something like the 10B?
Which is better, the sound of JL's through their own internal crossover and correction or that when driven via something like the 10B?
the professor
Active member
IMO I get a better musical system if I don't do anything to the main speakers and augment the base w a sub. Sometimes it's only below 30hz and sometimes it's below 70 hz.
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radioactive
New member
Jock,
Yes, exactly. For me, it's about 55-60Hz (for now) -- and I'm satisfied with the results. I've found the less I have in the signal path to my mains, the better.
Some try to integrate a sub into their system with a 3 way active crossover. Sending the highs to one channel, the mids to another, and the lows to a sub. The problem with this is that typically, most loudspeakers have a passive crossover inside the cabinet and are not designed to be crossed over twice. Sure, you could change the wiring to go direct to the driver, but do you really think you're smarter than the good people who designed and tuned your loudspeaker(s)? (this is one of Paul's points btw). What ends up happening is that you throw off any time alignment you had in the first place, not to mention other sound degradation ailments.
I never tried bypassing the internal crossover of my F110 by using an external crossover like the Bryston 10B when I had it on loan. It seemed pointless since the JL's also have some room correction/eq functionality together with their crossovers and I personally have found active room correction for low frequencies to be a good thing. Bass RC can remove ugly resonances and not significantly change the sound of the bass -- at least from what I've heard from several different systems (Lyngdorf's RP in my now sold MX151, ARC in my also now sold D2V, and Audyssey MultEQ XT32 in my Integra, and finally the integrated RC in my F110's -- btw, all do a good job on bass RC but I'd have to give the number one spot to the Integra. I turn off the internal crossover in my Velodyne HGS18" sub however and let Integra handle everything. It sounds much better that way in movies -- I don't use it for music.)
I think it's also important to say that not everyone has the same results. The OP may in fact have better results with his system and his room when using active crossovers. He said he has SF Elipsa's and F113's. Perhaps the F113's just don't integrate very well, perhaps there are other issues such as the room acoustics that are getting in the way. There are a ton of variables here, which is just another reason why I don't like adding an active crossover as it adds another variable to the equation.
I should also say that this is all something I've learned over the last few months.
Bryan
Yes, exactly. For me, it's about 55-60Hz (for now) -- and I'm satisfied with the results. I've found the less I have in the signal path to my mains, the better.
Some try to integrate a sub into their system with a 3 way active crossover. Sending the highs to one channel, the mids to another, and the lows to a sub. The problem with this is that typically, most loudspeakers have a passive crossover inside the cabinet and are not designed to be crossed over twice. Sure, you could change the wiring to go direct to the driver, but do you really think you're smarter than the good people who designed and tuned your loudspeaker(s)? (this is one of Paul's points btw). What ends up happening is that you throw off any time alignment you had in the first place, not to mention other sound degradation ailments.
I never tried bypassing the internal crossover of my F110 by using an external crossover like the Bryston 10B when I had it on loan. It seemed pointless since the JL's also have some room correction/eq functionality together with their crossovers and I personally have found active room correction for low frequencies to be a good thing. Bass RC can remove ugly resonances and not significantly change the sound of the bass -- at least from what I've heard from several different systems (Lyngdorf's RP in my now sold MX151, ARC in my also now sold D2V, and Audyssey MultEQ XT32 in my Integra, and finally the integrated RC in my F110's -- btw, all do a good job on bass RC but I'd have to give the number one spot to the Integra. I turn off the internal crossover in my Velodyne HGS18" sub however and let Integra handle everything. It sounds much better that way in movies -- I don't use it for music.)
I think it's also important to say that not everyone has the same results. The OP may in fact have better results with his system and his room when using active crossovers. He said he has SF Elipsa's and F113's. Perhaps the F113's just don't integrate very well, perhaps there are other issues such as the room acoustics that are getting in the way. There are a ton of variables here, which is just another reason why I don't like adding an active crossover as it adds another variable to the equation.
I should also say that this is all something I've learned over the last few months.
Bryan
radioactive
New member
Hi Rick,
Welcome to the forum btw..
I have a pair of JL F110's connected via 2M XLR's to the second pair of outputs on my Boulder 1010 preamp. The 1010 has two pair of outputs. One pair goes to my Boulder 1060, the other to my F110's.
Here's a photo:
Welcome to the forum btw..
I have a pair of JL F110's connected via 2M XLR's to the second pair of outputs on my Boulder 1010 preamp. The 1010 has two pair of outputs. One pair goes to my Boulder 1060, the other to my F110's.
Here's a photo:
Very nice set up. I've been tweaking settings on my subs all day. At one point I was ready to swear off subs altogether. Now the system is sounding better than ever. Lots of trial and error but here is what worked best. I turned the subs off then ran the room calibration sweep (Dirac Live) and saved a filter setting as close to flat as possible. Next I set the subs to 56 hertz and adjusted with the volume by ear.
Love the wheels on your Wilson's. My boys would be racing those across the living room.
Love the wheels on your Wilson's. My boys would be racing those across the living room.
Froggy the Gremlin
New member
If the mains simply quietly drop off below what they can cleanly reproduce you've got a good start.
I did quite well splitting the output of my preamp, sending one leg to a Rotel RB-991 driving a pair of Maggie 1.6s full range, and the other leg to a Velodyne VA 1022 with the crossover, being used as a low-pass filter only, set around 55 hz (+/- a few).
Positioning has a bit to do here, too. The sub was positioned about a foot to the left, and a bit farther back, from the right speaker.
I did quite well splitting the output of my preamp, sending one leg to a Rotel RB-991 driving a pair of Maggie 1.6s full range, and the other leg to a Velodyne VA 1022 with the crossover, being used as a low-pass filter only, set around 55 hz (+/- a few).
Positioning has a bit to do here, too. The sub was positioned about a foot to the left, and a bit farther back, from the right speaker.
KingRT10
New member
- Thread Author
- #38
I had an extra JL F112, so I used my SF Elipsa's with it. I never tried the Elipsa's naked (With out sub.) but do need to try it. I have heard from others, that they sound great alone.
But once you get use to a sub picking up the lows, its hard to pull it. It usually sounds like part of the band is walking away when subless.
Since my very first speakers (Celestion SL6si's), I have had a Velodyne Sub run (usually) in parallel. Today, with my current speakers, I still run a Velodyne DD18 in parallel, but set with a cut-off above 40hz (steep cut off of around 48db). When I mute the amp, there is so much information coming thru the sub (which is totally floating and isolated with 76lb of brass weights on top of 3 Stillpoints Ultra 5s to dampen vibration)...both spatial cues and of course tight bass info from deep house, hip hop to rock/blues, and orchestral...even closely miked live on stage classical and acoustic (often foot stomping or guitar slapping near the mike if its acoustic blues). Is the integration perfect? What is...but I know this: with the cut off so low now at 40hz...I am not quite as picky at that low level about the absolute pitch-perfect integration though the Velodyne is very very flexible, and I honest don't notice the blending. And (for myself and my ears)...when I turn the sub off...the volume starts to go up, the irritation with the lack of absolute slam starts to rise...but as soon as I flip it on...I can turn the volume literally to 1 (out of 99)...at 2am and I feel the full balanced weight of music incl a nice quiet punch to chest/air during bass heavy passages. I dig that.