2 channel system and subs.

KingRT10

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If you are going to use a sub in a 2 channel system, do yourself a favor and purchase an active crossover.
Tacking a sub on at the bottom of your full range speakers, is a comlete disaster. It muddles the bass on certain Cd's and will only sound good on Cd's that you have the sub balanced for them alone.

(I have SF Elipsa's and JL subs)
 
KingRT10 - Welcome to AS!

I agree that an active crossover is key. I have found that the way Rel integrates their subs can also be quite effective.

Bill13 here has mentioned a lack of bass with his Elipsa's. Can you give a little more info on what crossover you are using and which subs you went with? F110's?
 
I agree. DISASTER !

I have 104dB/w/m speakers and 86db/w/m subs. Even though I have the power in the JL Audio subs to "close the distance" in sensitivity.
(this is so I can achieve similar output)
I am still lowering the level of my active crossover, MEN220, to the lowest setting, -12dB, on the HF (keeping HF at 0dB) and juicing the variable output on the Subs to
get the system to be balanced from bass to treble, low to high.

I sometimes consider getting a modern and lower efficiency speaker so that it's easier to integrate the system.
 
I agree. DISASTER !

I have 104dB/w/m speakers and 86db/w/m subs. Even though I have the power in the JL Audio subs to "close the distance" in sensitivity.
(this is so I can achieve similar output)
I am still lowering the level of my active crossover, MEN220, to the lowest setting, -12dB, on the HF (keeping HF at 0dB) and juicing the variable output on the Subs to
get the system to be balanced from bass to treble, low to high.

I sometimes consider getting a modern and lower efficiency speaker so that it's easier to integrate the system.

Bill,
Doesn't the MEN adjust the volume for both outputs to match, automatically?
 
Bill,
Doesn't the MEN adjust the volume for both outputs to match, automatically?

Well, I will re examine my calibration method. I am thinking right now that it doesn't.
I remember the calibration starts with establishing the background or ambient SPL.
Then sets enough stand-off to mask any LFE/Ambient Noise that is existing.

Ideally a super quiet room, but that is what makes the MEN220 so fantastic. It will
adjust to take out the effects of the room.

Now, I am very interested there is any additional information out there to support my
idea that the mis-match in sensitivities is something to consider and a couple of
work arounds.
 
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Bill, I use Klipsch Palladium with a high sensitivity with JL f113's and room perfect in my McIntosh MX151. I bi-amp them and have them crossed at 80 Hz. I've never had an issue with outputs being mis-matched. The gain on my JL's are set around the 9 o'clock position.
 
Okay, sounds like it works for you.

Keep in mind the spec'd sensitivity of the JLA 13W7, a variant is used in the home model, is about 87 dB and your Klipsch P-39F's are spec'd at 95dB.

While there isn't enough to say what exactly the specs are and that specs aren't everything, I wanted to show you this snippet from the Klipsch p-39F Stereophile Review

Looking first at the Palladium's voltage sensitivity, my estimate was 94.8dB(B)/2.83V/m, which is within experimental error of the specified 95dB. The P-39F is thus one of the most sensitive models I have encountered in 20 years of measuring loudspeakers—it will play very loud with very few watts. However, the speaker is not as efficient at low frequencies as you might expect; its impedance drops between 3 and 4 ohms in the lower midrange (fig.1), with a nasty combination of 4 ohms magnitude and –50° electrical phase angle at 80Hz. The three woofers do demand a significant amount of current to keep up with the horn-loaded midrange and treble drive-units. The impedance is significantly higher in the region covered by the latter two drivers, averaging 10 ohms, which means that the speaker will sound tilted-up at high frequencies when used with a tube amplifier having a high source impedance.

That being said, I only understand half of what is up there, and I would never stand infront of an audience and talk intelligently about it, but I have the notion that there
are some smarter people than me out there that could chime in and help.

I say all that to say. I think you have less than 8dB variance in sensitivity for a given/spec'd frequency and at time a lower sensitivity that allows your speaker all to work nicely together. On the other hand I have almost a 17db variance between my main speakers and my subwoofers for the spec'd frequency. I can go on with the fact that my LF comes from an eight foot folded horn. So there is a bit of delay, some what noticeable. I have compensated by lowering the output of the main speakers and raising the output of the subwoofer (not the LF level at the active crossover). I got it sounding the way I like it now.

What I recommend, is read a pro sound setup or something that has two or more separate arrays that support two different ranges of frequencies. I can tell you that my Klipschorns sound only second to the most recent rock concert I went to. I am sure in the texts they show the high directivity and output of horns, then output from a subwoofer array and then the art or the techincal polish it takes to get them to work together at the mix/soundboard position and the audience position.
 
KingRT10 - Welcome to AS!

I agree that an active crossover is key. I have found that the way Rel integrates their subs can also be quite effective.

Bill13 here has mentioned a lack of bass with his Elipsa's. Can you give a little more info on what crossover you are using and which subs you went with? F110's?


Hey thanks for the reference, reading with interest.
Bill
 
Hey thanks for the reference, reading with interest.
Bill

Ok, I tuned each system first. First the main speakers only with Room perfect. Next, left channel subwoofer's automatic room correction, then right channel subwoofer.

Then just like tuning a guitar I tuned each system to integrate as a whole.

Works great now.
 
Ok, I tuned each system first. First the main speakers only with Room perfect. Next, left channel subwoofer's automatic room correction, then right channel subwoofer.

Then just like tuning a guitar I tuned each system to integrate as a whole.

Works great now.

That's great to hear Bill. Well integrated subs can really improve the overall sonic picture.
 
Two channel system & subs, NOT FOR ME THANK YOU bass from a box and bass from a panel don't sound the same, this is one of the reasons that i'm not crazy about hybrid speakers, i agree that the subs take some strain away from the panels BUT at a cost, you no longer have the same quality but you do have more, but for ME that's not important, i prefer qualiy over quantity any day, please take note that this is only my opinion and you are free to give yours.

PS: I am not bashing subwoofers, there just not for me, my living room is 13x20x8 feet in an 8 unit condo,
my speakers go down to 30 hz wich is more than enough for ME.


Keep It Simple 1600 X 1200.jpg
 
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Over on the Decware forum several people are advocating the HSU mid bass module as a good option, it's fast and musical they say. I haven't heard it but thought I'd pass the info on.
 
KingRT10 - Welcome to AS!

I agree that an active crossover is key. I have found that the way Rel integrates their subs can also be quite effective.

Bill13 here has mentioned a lack of bass with his Elipsa's. Can you give a little more info on what crossover you are using and which subs you went with? F110's?

F112 and Elipsa's. SMS-1 at 80hz. I will probably buy another crossover to lower it but it is seemless now. Tacking it on without a crossover is a mess and we tried forever to get it right.
Double bass city! Or so low, no sub noticed. I have been in expensive rooms with subs tacked on and the owners loves it, but its all bloat, that kills the midrange. Or you do not hear the sub/low end.
 
F112 and Elipsa's. SMS-1 at 80hz. I will probably buy another crossover to lower it but it is seemless now. Tacking it on without a crossover is a mess and we tried forever to get it right.
Double bass city! Or so low, no sub noticed. I have been in expensive rooms with subs tacked on and the owners loves it, but its all bloat, that kills the midrange. Or you do not hear the sub/low end.

Welcome.jpg To this great forum KingRT10 All members that know me know that i"m not crazy about matching subwoofers with PANELS but my friend Jocelyn as done so with his Acoustat Spectra 8800 and he as done a great job he uses 2 JL,s F-112s and to my surprise the integration is very good but my PERSONAL choice is STILL without subs.

PS: A photo of me and the Spectra 8800. Acoustat Spectra 8800 05.jpg
 
As several members have stated, an active crossover with a sub is mandatory for good well balanced sound. If all you want is more bass, you don't need a crossover, but if quality is what you're after, you can't do without one, and JL Audio even recommends one.
 
A 2 sub audio system can be amazing. Every great system I have heard over the years has had 2 subs or the equal in it. By equal, I mean that the manufacturer has for all practical purposes included a sub in their floor standing speaker and sometimes even in a separate unit, but sold as 1 pair of speakers.

It can also sound like a disjointed mess. In my experience panel speakers are the hardest to get right, but it can be done because I have heard it. I personally have never been able to do it - must be above my level of patience.
 
So this is something I'm currently tackling. What about subs like the F113? I just pulled the trigger on a pair. They have some built in capabilities -- do think that would be enough? My real concern with adding an active xover would be that it might color or affect the signal to my mains in a way that I might not like. What model/brand of active xovers does everyone recommend?
 
So this is something I'm currently tackling. What about subs like the F113? I just pulled the trigger on a pair. They have some built in capabilities -- do think that would be enough? My real concern with adding an active xover would be that it might color or affect the signal to my mains in a way that I might not like. What model/brand of active xovers does everyone recommend?

I use 2 F113's also. Great subs! But you still need a active crossover. Bryston 10b will give you the proper transition and dynamic range with your ordered subs.
 
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