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  1. #1
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    2 channel system and subs.

    If you are going to use a sub in a 2 channel system, do yourself a favor and purchase an active crossover.
    Tacking a sub on at the bottom of your full range speakers, is a comlete disaster. It muddles the bass on certain Cd's and will only sound good on Cd's that you have the sub balanced for them alone.

    (I have SF Elipsa's and JL subs)

  2. #2
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    KingRT10 - Welcome to AS!

    I agree that an active crossover is key. I have found that the way Rel integrates their subs can also be quite effective.

    Bill13 here has mentioned a lack of bass with his Elipsa's. Can you give a little more info on what crossover you are using and which subs you went with? F110's?
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  3. #3
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    I agree. DISASTER !

    I have 104dB/w/m speakers and 86db/w/m subs. Even though I have the power in the JL Audio subs to "close the distance" in sensitivity.
    (this is so I can achieve similar output)
    I am still lowering the level of my active crossover, MEN220, to the lowest setting, -12dB, on the HF (keeping HF at 0dB) and juicing the variable output on the Subs to
    get the system to be balanced from bass to treble, low to high.

    I sometimes consider getting a modern and lower efficiency speaker so that it's easier to integrate the system.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by o0OBillO0o View Post
    I agree. DISASTER !

    I have 104dB/w/m speakers and 86db/w/m subs. Even though I have the power in the JL Audio subs to "close the distance" in sensitivity.
    (this is so I can achieve similar output)
    I am still lowering the level of my active crossover, MEN220, to the lowest setting, -12dB, on the HF (keeping HF at 0dB) and juicing the variable output on the Subs to
    get the system to be balanced from bass to treble, low to high.

    I sometimes consider getting a modern and lower efficiency speaker so that it's easier to integrate the system.
    Bill,
    Doesn't the MEN adjust the volume for both outputs to match, automatically?
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rscotth View Post
    Bill,
    Doesn't the MEN adjust the volume for both outputs to match, automatically?
    Well, I will re examine my calibration method. I am thinking right now that it doesn't.
    I remember the calibration starts with establishing the background or ambient SPL.
    Then sets enough stand-off to mask any LFE/Ambient Noise that is existing.

    Ideally a super quiet room, but that is what makes the MEN220 so fantastic. It will
    adjust to take out the effects of the room.

    Now, I am very interested there is any additional information out there to support my
    idea that the mis-match in sensitivities is something to consider and a couple of
    work arounds.
    Last edited by o0OBillO0o; April 10, 2013 at 05:34 PM.

  6. #6
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    Bill, I use Klipsch Palladium with a high sensitivity with JL f113's and room perfect in my McIntosh MX151. I bi-amp them and have them crossed at 80 Hz. I've never had an issue with outputs being mis-matched. The gain on my JL's are set around the 9 o'clock position.
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  7. #7
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    Okay, sounds like it works for you.

    Keep in mind the spec'd sensitivity of the JLA 13W7, a variant is used in the home model, is about 87 dB and your Klipsch P-39F's are spec'd at 95dB.

    While there isn't enough to say what exactly the specs are and that specs aren't everything, I wanted to show you this snippet from the Klipsch p-39F Stereophile Review

    Looking first at the Palladium's voltage sensitivity, my estimate was 94.8dB(B)/2.83V/m, which is within experimental error of the specified 95dB. The P-39F is thus one of the most sensitive models I have encountered in 20 years of measuring loudspeakers—it will play very loud with very few watts. However, the speaker is not as efficient at low frequencies as you might expect; its impedance drops between 3 and 4 ohms in the lower midrange (fig.1), with a nasty combination of 4 ohms magnitude and –50° electrical phase angle at 80Hz. The three woofers do demand a significant amount of current to keep up with the horn-loaded midrange and treble drive-units. The impedance is significantly higher in the region covered by the latter two drivers, averaging 10 ohms, which means that the speaker will sound tilted-up at high frequencies when used with a tube amplifier having a high source impedance.
    That being said, I only understand half of what is up there, and I would never stand infront of an audience and talk intelligently about it, but I have the notion that there
    are some smarter people than me out there that could chime in and help.

    I say all that to say. I think you have less than 8dB variance in sensitivity for a given/spec'd frequency and at time a lower sensitivity that allows your speaker all to work nicely together. On the other hand I have almost a 17db variance between my main speakers and my subwoofers for the spec'd frequency. I can go on with the fact that my LF comes from an eight foot folded horn. So there is a bit of delay, some what noticeable. I have compensated by lowering the output of the main speakers and raising the output of the subwoofer (not the LF level at the active crossover). I got it sounding the way I like it now.

    What I recommend, is read a pro sound setup or something that has two or more separate arrays that support two different ranges of frequencies. I can tell you that my Klipschorns sound only second to the most recent rock concert I went to. I am sure in the texts they show the high directivity and output of horns, then output from a subwoofer array and then the art or the techincal polish it takes to get them to work together at the mix/soundboard position and the audience position.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    KingRT10 - Welcome to AS!

    I agree that an active crossover is key. I have found that the way Rel integrates their subs can also be quite effective.

    Bill13 here has mentioned a lack of bass with his Elipsa's. Can you give a little more info on what crossover you are using and which subs you went with? F110's?

    Hey thanks for the reference, reading with interest.
    Bill
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    Listening Room Gear McIntosh MT10, McIntosh c2300, McIntosh MC275MKVI Mono'd, Sonus Faber Elipsa SE

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill13 View Post
    Hey thanks for the reference, reading with interest.
    Bill
    Ok, I tuned each system first. First the main speakers only with Room perfect. Next, left channel subwoofer's automatic room correction, then right channel subwoofer.

    Then just like tuning a guitar I tuned each system to integrate as a whole.

    Works great now.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by o0OBillO0o View Post
    Ok, I tuned each system first. First the main speakers only with Room perfect. Next, left channel subwoofer's automatic room correction, then right channel subwoofer.

    Then just like tuning a guitar I tuned each system to integrate as a whole.

    Works great now.
    That's great to hear Bill. Well integrated subs can really improve the overall sonic picture.
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  11. #11
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    Two channel system & subs, NOT FOR ME THANK YOU bass from a box and bass from a panel don't sound the same, this is one of the reasons that i'm not crazy about hybrid speakers, i agree that the subs take some strain away from the panels BUT at a cost, you no longer have the same quality but you do have more, but for ME that's not important, i prefer qualiy over quantity any day, please take note that this is only my opinion and you are free to give yours.

    PS: I am not bashing subwoofers, there just not for me, my living room is 13x20x8 feet in an 8 unit condo,
    my speakers go down to 30 hz wich is more than enough for ME.


    Keep It Simple 1600 X 1200.jpg
    Last edited by MrAcoustat; April 21, 2013 at 05:11 PM.
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    Over on the Decware forum several people are advocating the HSU mid bass module as a good option, it's fast and musical they say. I haven't heard it but thought I'd pass the info on.
    Ron

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    KingRT10 - Welcome to AS!

    I agree that an active crossover is key. I have found that the way Rel integrates their subs can also be quite effective.

    Bill13 here has mentioned a lack of bass with his Elipsa's. Can you give a little more info on what crossover you are using and which subs you went with? F110's?
    F112 and Elipsa's. SMS-1 at 80hz. I will probably buy another crossover to lower it but it is seemless now. Tacking it on without a crossover is a mess and we tried forever to get it right.
    Double bass city! Or so low, no sub noticed. I have been in expensive rooms with subs tacked on and the owners loves it, but its all bloat, that kills the midrange. Or you do not hear the sub/low end.

  14. #14
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingRT10 View Post
    F112 and Elipsa's. SMS-1 at 80hz. I will probably buy another crossover to lower it but it is seemless now. Tacking it on without a crossover is a mess and we tried forever to get it right.
    Double bass city! Or so low, no sub noticed. I have been in expensive rooms with subs tacked on and the owners loves it, but its all bloat, that kills the midrange. Or you do not hear the sub/low end.
    Welcome.jpg To this great forum KingRT10 All members that know me know that i"m not crazy about matching subwoofers with PANELS but my friend Jocelyn as done so with his Acoustat Spectra 8800 and he as done a great job he uses 2 JL,s F-112s and to my surprise the integration is very good but my PERSONAL choice is STILL without subs.

    PS: A photo of me and the Spectra 8800. Acoustat Spectra 8800 05.jpg
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  15. #15
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    As several members have stated, an active crossover with a sub is mandatory for good well balanced sound. If all you want is more bass, you don't need a crossover, but if quality is what you're after, you can't do without one, and JL Audio even recommends one.
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  16. #16
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    A 2 sub audio system can be amazing. Every great system I have heard over the years has had 2 subs or the equal in it. By equal, I mean that the manufacturer has for all practical purposes included a sub in their floor standing speaker and sometimes even in a separate unit, but sold as 1 pair of speakers.

    It can also sound like a disjointed mess. In my experience panel speakers are the hardest to get right, but it can be done because I have heard it. I personally have never been able to do it - must be above my level of patience.
    Jock

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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    So this is something I'm currently tackling. What about subs like the F113? I just pulled the trigger on a pair. They have some built in capabilities -- do think that would be enough? My real concern with adding an active xover would be that it might color or affect the signal to my mains in a way that I might not like. What model/brand of active xovers does everyone recommend?
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  18. #18
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Holly crap. That's not a speaker. That's a freakin' building!
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  19. #19
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by radioactive View Post
    Holly crap. That's not a speaker. That's a freakin' building!
    Welcome.jpg To this great forum radioactive Thumb Up.jpg
    André - - - Keep it simple system
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  20. #20
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by radioactive View Post
    So this is something I'm currently tackling. What about subs like the F113? I just pulled the trigger on a pair. They have some built in capabilities -- do think that would be enough? My real concern with adding an active xover would be that it might color or affect the signal to my mains in a way that I might not like. What model/brand of active xovers does everyone recommend?
    I use 2 F113's also. Great subs! But you still need a active crossover. Bryston 10b will give you the proper transition and dynamic range with your ordered subs.

  21. #21

    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    JL Audio is coming out with a crossover (all analog) that will be significantly less list price than the Bryston, and they say it will have far more features.

  22. #22
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gillespie View Post
    JL Audio is coming out with a crossover (all analog) that will be significantly less list price than the Bryston, and they say it will have far more features.
    It's about time! Thanks for the heads up Mike!
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  23. #23
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Thank you for joining the forum Laurence!

    Welcome aboard.
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  24. #24
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Thats great.
    Jock

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  25. #25

    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Great thread, First post. I'm using two REL subs connected via their speakon cables. I'm one of those guys who tacked subs onto full range speakers and is happy with the results. I want to know more about the importance of using an active crossover. Some speaker manufactures are designing built in subs. I recently heard some Vandersteen's (don't remember the model but they were about $45k) and they sounded amazing. Are they using active crossovers built into the cabinets?

    PS Im also running Dirac Live room correction.

  26. #26
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick U View Post
    Great thread, First post. I'm using two REL subs connected via their speakon cables. I'm one of those guys who tacked subs onto full range speakers and is happy with the results. I want to know more about the importance of using an active crossover. Some speaker manufactures are designing built in subs. I recently heard some Vandersteen's (don't remember the model but they were about $45k) and they sounded amazing. Are they using active crossovers built into the cabinets?

    PS Im also running Dirac Live room correction.
    Hi Rick - welcome!

    My understanding of the Vandy 7's (probably what you heard) is that they do have an active crossover and a class-d amp to handle the subs built into the speakers. There are many excellent active crossovers on the market today. Bryston makes one. Pass makes one. There are many others. There is even a bass management function built into the Classe CP-800 preamp which might fit the bill for you.

    That being said, it is my understanding that REL subs have an active crossover built in. Perhaps I'm wrong....but I think that's how they integrate.

    If I was buying subs today - it would be REL.

    Mike
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  27. #27
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    I don't agree. I found active crossovers remind me of digital room correction from the likes of Anthem's ARC and McIntosh's RP. Not bad, but definitely not good. Dynamics were squashed, and music just lost its realism.

    I use two F110's with my Sasha's and am getting great results without active crossovers in the way.

    Just goes to show, before believing everything is absolute, you should hear for yourself. Not everyone's preferences are the same.



    Quote Originally Posted by KingRT10 View Post
    If you are going to use a sub in a 2 channel system, do yourself a favor and purchase an active crossover.
    Tacking a sub on at the bottom of your full range speakers, is a comlete disaster. It muddles the bass on certain Cd's and will only sound good on Cd's that you have the sub balanced for them alone.

    (I have SF Elipsa's and JL subs)
    Ref System: Boulder 2010, Boulder 2060, dCS Rossini, Roon, Wilson Alexia's, 3x Wilson Watch, Krell S1200u-3D, 3x Halo JC-1's, 2x Velodyne DD+18, PLV3000 Projector
    Office ("fun") System:
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  28. #28

    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    After adding a second sub I became convinced stereo subs will be with me for life. The subs added so much more than bass. I'm getting better depth, air, punch, and sweetness throughout. They let me get away with smaller speakers, they help compensate for room problems, and they add flexibility with speaker placement. The thought of having to use an active crossover is messing up my game plan. I just don't want another component with things to adjust. Everyone loves their JL subs but I see a lot of people having trouble integrating without the active crossover. Radioactive you keep the dream alive.


    Quote Originally Posted by radioactive View Post
    I dont agree. I found active xovers reminded me of digital room correction from the likes of Anthem's ARC and McIntosh's RP. Not bad, but definitely not good. Dynamics were squashed, and music just lost its realism.

    I use two F110's with my Sasha's and am getting great results without actively crossovers in the way.

    Just goes to show, before believe everything is absolute, you shoud hear for yoursel. Not everyone's preferences are the same.

  29. #29
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    I don't know about "everyone" having problems integrating their JL's. Personally, it took some trial and error, but once I got it set to what I liked, I haven't even touched my JL's. I've had many friends over to listen and they loved the way they integrated, and I personally am happy. So much so, that I no longer have the itch to upgrade to Wilson Maxx 3's (or even a used pair of Alexandria's).

    If you follow Paul McGowan's posts on PS you'll see I'm not in the minority. Paul himself has found the same thing I have to be true and that's adding active crossovers aren't the best approach to integrating a sub into your system. Don't just take my word for it, take a read for yourself:

    Subs | PS Audio

    And...

    Your mileage may vary | PS Audio

    These are very good discussions on the topic of trying to integrate a Sub, and Paul has done a great job of writing all the issues down and explaining his point(s).

    I think the point is to also listen for yourself -- you be the judge. It might be an expensive experience if you can't get a loaner like I did. But I didn't like the results of active crossover(s).


    Bryan

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick U View Post
    After adding a second sub I became convinced stereo subs will be with me for life. The subs added so much more than bass. I'm getting better depth, air, punch, and sweetness throughout. They let me get away with smaller speakers, they help compensate for room problems, and they add flexibility with speaker placement. The thought of having to use an active crossover is messing up my game plan. I just don't want another component with things to adjust. Everyone loves their JL subs but I see a lot of people having trouble integrating without the active crossover. Radioactive you keep the dream alive.
    Ref System: Boulder 2010, Boulder 2060, dCS Rossini, Roon, Wilson Alexia's, 3x Wilson Watch, Krell S1200u-3D, 3x Halo JC-1's, 2x Velodyne DD+18, PLV3000 Projector
    Office ("fun") System:
    Devialet Expert 400, B&W 800D2's & Dynaudio Focus 160's, Velodyne DD+10

  30. #30

    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Bryan how do you have your subs connected?

  31. #31
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    I think that people sometimes get talking about active or not active when almost all subs use an active crossover --- the discussion is really whether or not to use a high pass filter to eliminate the lows in the main speakers or to run them full range.

    Powered subs (99%) use an active crossover because they filter out the high freq before the amp built in.

    I use a separate active crossover because it gives me quite a bit more control of the sub to better integrate. However, I choose not use the high pass part to roll off the main speakers because I find that it sounds better. I run the full signal to the main speakers.
    Jock

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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    The discussion is using something like the Bryston 10B and sending the high pass to your mains. From there either sending the low pass to your sub, or using the sub's internal crossover is not the discussion, though it's an interesting topic.

    Which is better, the sound of JL's through their own internal crossover and correction or that when driven via something like the 10B?

    Quote Originally Posted by the professor View Post
    I think that people sometimes get talking about active or not active when almost all subs use an active crossover --- the discussion is really whether or not to use a high pass filter to eliminate the lows in the main speakers or to run them full range.

    Powered subs (99%) use an active crossover because they filter out the high freq before the amp built in.

    I use a separate active crossover because it gives me quite a bit more control of the sub to better integrate. However, I choose not use the high pass part to roll off the main speakers because I find that it sounds better. I run the full signal to the main speakers.
    Ref System: Boulder 2010, Boulder 2060, dCS Rossini, Roon, Wilson Alexia's, 3x Wilson Watch, Krell S1200u-3D, 3x Halo JC-1's, 2x Velodyne DD+18, PLV3000 Projector
    Office ("fun") System:
    Devialet Expert 400, B&W 800D2's & Dynaudio Focus 160's, Velodyne DD+10

  33. #33
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    IMO I get a better musical system if I don't do anything to the main speakers and augment the base w a sub. Sometimes it's only below 30hz and sometimes it's below 70 hz.
    Last edited by the professor; July 14, 2013 at 02:54 PM. Reason: Deleted statement that incorrectly restated posts above
    Jock

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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Jock,

    Yes, exactly. For me, it's about 55-60Hz (for now) -- and I'm satisfied with the results. I've found the less I have in the signal path to my mains, the better.

    Some try to integrate a sub into their system with a 3 way active crossover. Sending the highs to one channel, the mids to another, and the lows to a sub. The problem with this is that typically, most loudspeakers have a passive crossover inside the cabinet and are not designed to be crossed over twice. Sure, you could change the wiring to go direct to the driver, but do you really think you're smarter than the good people who designed and tuned your loudspeaker(s)? (this is one of Paul's points btw). What ends up happening is that you throw off any time alignment you had in the first place, not to mention other sound degradation ailments.

    I never tried bypassing the internal crossover of my F110 by using an external crossover like the Bryston 10B when I had it on loan. It seemed pointless since the JL's also have some room correction/eq functionality together with their crossovers and I personally have found active room correction for low frequencies to be a good thing. Bass RC can remove ugly resonances and not significantly change the sound of the bass -- at least from what I've heard from several different systems (Lyngdorf's RP in my now sold MX151, ARC in my also now sold D2V, and Audyssey MultEQ XT32 in my Integra, and finally the integrated RC in my F110's -- btw, all do a good job on bass RC but I'd have to give the number one spot to the Integra. I turn off the internal crossover in my Velodyne HGS18" sub however and let Integra handle everything. It sounds much better that way in movies -- I don't use it for music.)

    I think it's also important to say that not everyone has the same results. The OP may in fact have better results with his system and his room when using active crossovers. He said he has SF Elipsa's and F113's. Perhaps the F113's just don't integrate very well, perhaps there are other issues such as the room acoustics that are getting in the way. There are a ton of variables here, which is just another reason why I don't like adding an active crossover as it adds another variable to the equation.

    I should also say that this is all something I've learned over the last few months.

    Bryan

    Quote Originally Posted by the professor View Post
    So you're saying that either way the main speakers are not running full range because you are sending the high pass to them?

    IMO I get a better musical system if I don't do anything to the main speakers and augment the base w a sub. Sometimes it's only below 30hz and sometimes it's below 70 hz.
    Ref System: Boulder 2010, Boulder 2060, dCS Rossini, Roon, Wilson Alexia's, 3x Wilson Watch, Krell S1200u-3D, 3x Halo JC-1's, 2x Velodyne DD+18, PLV3000 Projector
    Office ("fun") System:
    Devialet Expert 400, B&W 800D2's & Dynaudio Focus 160's, Velodyne DD+10

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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Hi Rick,

    Welcome to the forum btw..

    I have a pair of JL F110's connected via 2M XLR's to the second pair of outputs on my Boulder 1010 preamp. The 1010 has two pair of outputs. One pair goes to my Boulder 1060, the other to my F110's.

    Here's a photo:




    Quote Originally Posted by Rick U View Post
    Bryan how do you have your subs connected?
    Ref System: Boulder 2010, Boulder 2060, dCS Rossini, Roon, Wilson Alexia's, 3x Wilson Watch, Krell S1200u-3D, 3x Halo JC-1's, 2x Velodyne DD+18, PLV3000 Projector
    Office ("fun") System:
    Devialet Expert 400, B&W 800D2's & Dynaudio Focus 160's, Velodyne DD+10

  36. #36

    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Very nice set up. I've been tweaking settings on my subs all day. At one point I was ready to swear off subs altogether. Now the system is sounding better than ever. Lots of trial and error but here is what worked best. I turned the subs off then ran the room calibration sweep (Dirac Live) and saved a filter setting as close to flat as possible. Next I set the subs to 56 hertz and adjusted with the volume by ear.

    Love the wheels on your Wilson's. My boys would be racing those across the living room.

  37. #37
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    If the mains simply quietly drop off below what they can cleanly reproduce you've got a good start.

    I did quite well splitting the output of my preamp, sending one leg to a Rotel RB-991 driving a pair of Maggie 1.6s full range, and the other leg to a Velodyne VA 1022 with the crossover, being used as a low-pass filter only, set around 55 hz (+/- a few).

    Positioning has a bit to do here, too. The sub was positioned about a foot to the left, and a bit farther back, from the right speaker.

  38. #38
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    KingRT10 - Welcome to AS!

    I agree that an active crossover is key. I have found that the way Rel integrates their subs can also be quite effective.

    Bill13 here has mentioned a lack of bass with his Elipsa's. Can you give a little more info on what crossover you are using and which subs you went with? F110's?
    I had an extra JL F112, so I used my SF Elipsa's with it. I never tried the Elipsa's naked (With out sub.) but do need to try it. I have heard from others, that they sound great alone.
    But once you get use to a sub picking up the lows, its hard to pull it. It usually sounds like part of the band is walking away when subless.
    2 Channel: Sonus Faber Elipsa's, JL sub, McIntosh 501 amps, McIntosh tuner, pre-amp, CD player, Wire World. Pro-ject TT.

    Home Theater Room: McIntosh LS360's, 2 JL F113 subs, Projector, Oppo, 5.1 System.

    Office: Sonus Faber Auditors, McIntosh MA 2275, Concept TT.

    Long term system 1970's: McIntosh ML 1C speakers, MAC 1700, McIntosh MQ 101 Eq.

    Headphones: Audeze LCD 3, Woo Amp.

  39. #39

    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Since my very first speakers (Celestion SL6si's), I have had a Velodyne Sub run (usually) in parallel. Today, with my current speakers, I still run a Velodyne DD18 in parallel, but set with a cut-off above 40hz (steep cut off of around 48db). When I mute the amp, there is so much information coming thru the sub (which is totally floating and isolated with 76lb of brass weights on top of 3 Stillpoints Ultra 5s to dampen vibration)...both spatial cues and of course tight bass info from deep house, hip hop to rock/blues, and orchestral...even closely miked live on stage classical and acoustic (often foot stomping or guitar slapping near the mike if its acoustic blues). Is the integration perfect? What is...but I know this: with the cut off so low now at 40hz...I am not quite as picky at that low level about the absolute pitch-perfect integration though the Velodyne is very very flexible, and I honest don't notice the blending. And (for myself and my ears)...when I turn the sub off...the volume starts to go up, the irritation with the lack of absolute slam starts to rise...but as soon as I flip it on...I can turn the volume literally to 1 (out of 99)...at 2am and I feel the full balanced weight of music incl a nice quiet punch to chest/air during bass heavy passages. I dig that.
    Source: Zanden 4-Box Digital
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  40. #40
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by the professor View Post
    IMO I get a better musical system if I don't do anything to the main speakers and augment the base w a sub. Sometimes it's only below 30hz and sometimes it's below 70 hz.
    This is my problem. With subs tacked on at the bottom, some cd's sound better at 40hz and others at 70hz. So for every cd, I have to make adjustments to compensate for the double bass. With an x-over everything seems to smooth out.
    2 Channel: Sonus Faber Elipsa's, JL sub, McIntosh 501 amps, McIntosh tuner, pre-amp, CD player, Wire World. Pro-ject TT.

    Home Theater Room: McIntosh LS360's, 2 JL F113 subs, Projector, Oppo, 5.1 System.

    Office: Sonus Faber Auditors, McIntosh MA 2275, Concept TT.

    Long term system 1970's: McIntosh ML 1C speakers, MAC 1700, McIntosh MQ 101 Eq.

    Headphones: Audeze LCD 3, Woo Amp.

  41. #41
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    I use subs in stereo mode using a Arcam AVR 600.You would never pick the subs were there as the blend in so well with the mains.With the room treatments I use I dont get the BOOM BOOM of the bass but rather the SLAP of fast bass!!
    StumpH subs x3.JPG
    Last edited by stump; March 16, 2014 at 04:46 AM. Reason: pic

  42. #42
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    The Arcam AVR600 is a serious receiver. Do you have any issues at all with some HDMI incompatibilities or anything else?
    ~ Bob ~
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  43. #43
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    There were many issues with the Arcam AVR600 and HDMI handshake.This would have been due to the fact it was built to cover all components New and Old .I myself have never had a issue as the only time I used HDMI was when I would connect a small LCD screen to access the Arcam menu.I use the Arcam for music only.If the Arcam AVR 750 had multi channel input for surround music I would upgrade .
    Cheers Stump

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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    It's a fantastic receiver (AVR600) sound quality and power wise with even tough to drive speakers.

    Enjoy life with ♪
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  45. #45

    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by stump View Post
    I use subs in stereo mode using a Arcam AVR 600.You would never pick the subs were there as the blend in so well with the mains.With the room treatments I use I dont get the BOOM BOOM of the bass but rather the SLAP of fast bass!!
    Stump
    Same here. I just had a pair of JL F113 subs professionally integrated on front and back walls using a DEQX HDP-4 and REW. They are each mono and cross over the main R/L and sub at 47hz, 24db/octave. I use a DEQX HDP-4 as active crossover. The bass is very FAST. It's really hard to understand what really good quality and fast bass sounds like unless you hear it. It's a BIG upgrade, IMO. I agree that this cannot be done without an active crossover/delay. The problem with most subs in a 2CH system is there is not the proper time and phase alignment with the main R/L channels. In my system, you would not be able to find the subs in the room with your eyes closed and you would not know the subs are even there unless you saw them. That's the way to do it, IMO.

    Michael.

  46. #46
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Michael - I am in agreement. I am looking at the DEQX Mate + JL Audio F112 (2). My experiment last night with a friends sub-crossover and my Seaton Submersives running as a fun experiment convinced me.
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    a big +1

    Don't bother for 2 ch if you don't go active. It will never integrate musically, maybe by specs and measurements but not musically.

    Quote Originally Posted by dallasjustice View Post
    Same here. I just had a pair of JL F113 subs professionally integrated on front and back walls using a DEQX HDP-4 and REW. They are each mono and cross over the main R/L and sub at 47hz, 24db/octave. I use a DEQX HDP-4 as active crossover. The bass is very FAST. It's really hard to understand what really good quality and fast bass sounds like unless you hear it. It's a BIG upgrade, IMO. I agree that this cannot be done without an active crossover/delay. The problem with most subs in a 2CH system is there is not the proper time and phase alignment with the main R/L channels. In my system, you would not be able to find the subs in the room with your eyes closed and you would not know the subs are even there unless you saw them. That's the way to do it, IMO.

    Michael.
    Jock

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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Almost every time I re -read a technical posting by me, I just face palm. Today, I think subs are all about the timing of the signal. Does it match the main speakers (and center)? Do I have a smooth response?

    Thanks for the DEQX HDP-4 and REW tid-bit I am reading all about it..

  49. #49
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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    Quote Originally Posted by o0OBillO0o View Post
    Almost every time I re -read a technical posting by me, I just face palm. Today, I think subs are all about the timing of the signal. Does it match the main speakers (and center)? Do I have a smooth response?

    Thanks for the DEQX HDP-4 and REW tid-bit I am reading all about it..
    Center? It balances the subs (1 or 2) and front L/R, but understanding is that it also does phase correction, timing coherence, etc. for the mains (separate), then the subs (separate), then together.


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    Re: 2 channel system and subs.

    I use a Martin Logan sub with my Magnepan 1.6's. I have it set so the Maggies are full range which is down to 45hz and the sub is cut off at 45hz. the transition is seamless and you would be hard pressed to tell that there was a sub except for very bass heavy music. The ML sub does a great job of keeping up with the Maggies, nice tight, fast and non boomy bass.

    I think people run into problems with subs in a 2ch set up when the subs volume is too high, the cross over is set to high and improper placement like near a corner. The sub should not be heard except on bass heavy music and then it should sound seamless and natural.
    My Gear- Mains System-Pass X250 amp, BAT VK-51se preamp, Luxman DA-06 DAC, Magnepan 1.6's, Thorens TD-145 TT, Dual Martin Logan Subs, Vintage Luxman T-110 Tuner, Other systems- Parasound A21 amp,Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid tube DAC and Preamp, Magnepan MMG's, Monitor Audio S1's, PSB B6's, Def Tech Pro Monitor 1000's, Velodyne sub, Adcom GFR-700 AVR, Music Hall 25.2 modified CDP, Cables by Cardas Parsec, AQ Columbia DBS 72v, Wire World.

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2 channel system and subs.

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