Why no turntable?

[Mike]

this past Tuesday evening i had 10 music loving visitors (2 wives included). they were there from before 6pm to midnight. it was a fun session.

we listened to digital, vinyl and tape.

each format had it's advantages. we used my digital to access music from my files, Tidal and Qobuz, mostly we played vinyl, and did a couple of tapes, one 1/4" 15ips and one 1/2" 15ips.

but there was no doubt where the consistent magic was found, the place the emotional connection ran the highest, and that was vinyl. it could grab you and you would hear way into it. i played some very large scale music at warp 9 and it all held 100% together.

and my digital does not suck. to be fair, no one mentioned that something was missing with my digital, even streaming. and we accessed some pretty off the rails digital tracks. i can't say what they were thinking.

music was the big deal that night. and we all enjoyed it. IMHO the session would have been less memorable without vinyl.

Mike, like you, having all three sources gives us a different perspective, each having wonderful qualities. For me, Vinyl has such presence. When I’m listening to vinyl (originally recorded to tape and not the recorded to digital files and then cut to vinyl), the “presence” vinyl has allows me to be part of the performance. Close your eyes and you suspend belief. You are part of the performance. You’re there. When I listen to a modest digital setup (which is all I have at home), I feel there is no doubt I’m listening to a recording of a performance. It lacks that magical presence. I suspect that’s part of what your guests heard as well.

But I also love digital for the convenience, finding new music, and the trouble free sound.

Frankly, I would encourage everyone to have both. There’s no right or wrong. Both are really terrific in their own right.


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[PureVinyl]

Great topic!

having Vinyl and digital streaming gives me flexibility with all my music.


Here's a video from one the great pioneers in Vinyl--AJ Van Den Hul.

AJ's take on both formats...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTVHURVglEg&t=48s

 

[RDSChicago]

unpopular opinion, but I feel digital is much better at the lower levels.

the analog investment for vinyl is high for playback as well as media. that said, analog re-masters on a good TT setup are the cat's meow and make it worth the effort. i have a half mastered Everything but the Girl album in transit that will never be on digital.

Which Everything but the Girl album(s) is(are) their seminal albums? I'm not familiar with their music and am listening to their debut album now over Tidal. Very pleasant vibe.

 

[BlueFox]

The stereo has been playing non-stop for 90 minutes, and, other than getting up for beer, I haven’t moved. This should continue for at least another 5 hours.

 

[Kuoppis]

This may sound funny, but I actually enjoy optimizing my vinyl setup, and the fact, that it actually requires a bit of skills and knowledge - not just money.

And I’m with Mike & Mike: different media give me different things. Both, my digital and vinyl setups are rather good, and there is no need for a blunt either/ or. I also enjoy collecting vinyls, while collecting digital less so. Especially, as everything is so readily available via Tidal etc.


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[Al M.]

Mike, like you, having all three sources gives us a different perspective, each having wonderful qualities. For me, Vinyl has such presence. When I’m listening to vinyl (originally recorded to tape and not the recorded to digital files and then cut to vinyl), the “presence” vinyl has allows me to be part of the performance. Close your eyes and you suspend belief. You are part of the performance. You’re there. When I listen to a modest digital setup (which is all I have at home), I feel there is no doubt I’m listening to a recording of a performance. It lacks that magical presence. I suspect that’s part of what your guests heard as well.

But I also love digital for the convenience, finding new music, and the trouble free sound.

Frankly, I would encourage everyone to have both. There’s no right or wrong. Both are really terrific in their own right.


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I don't know, Mike. Presence has always been one of the strongest points of my digital system, and it is now better than ever with the most recent increases in transparency. I was just listening to the track 'Alone Together' for bass clarinet and stand up bass, from the recent release Eric Dolphy 'Musical Prophet'. I have heard that track on LP elsewhere, and the two instruments had incredible presence. Yet they also do on CD in my system, as if they were standing in front of you performing.

Vocals can sound uncannily real precisely because of the presence, next to the other things that need to be right in reproduction. On my recording of Stockhausen's 'In the Sky I am Walking' there are just two singers, mezzo soprano and tenor, without accompaniment. I like to listen in the dark, and the impression of the two singers being right in front of you, transparently, with no veil between you and the performers, can be startling, even frightening.

So no, I don't think vinyl has an edge when it comes to that.

 

[puroagave]

The stereo has been playing non-stop for 90 minutes, and, other than getting up for beer, I haven’t moved. This should continue for at least another 5 hours.

Oh yeah? well I can stream from my phone via bluetooth to a sonos one outside on my patio while basking under the sun and I had money left over for a bottle of Blanton's which beats yer beer any day of the week

engaging music playback is more than convenience.

 

[Mike]

I don't know, Mike. Presence has always been one of the strongest points of my digital system, and it is now better than ever with the most recent increases in transparency. I was just listening to the track 'Alone Together' for bass clarinet and stand up bass, from the recent release Eric Dolphy 'Musical Prophet'. I have heard that track on LP elsewhere, and the two instruments had incredible presence. Yet they also do on CD in my system, as if they were standing in front of you performing.

Vocals can sound uncannily real precisely because of the presence, next to the other things that need to be right in reproduction. On my recording of Stockhausen's 'In the Sky I am Walking' there are just two singers, mezzo soprano and tenor, without accompaniment. I like to listen in the dark, and the impression of the two singers being right in front of you, transparently, with no veil between you and the performers, can be startling, even frightening.

So no, I don't think vinyl has an edge when it comes to that.

It would all depend on the pressing I guess. A noisy pressing and it will ruin the presence. But ultimately, unless you listen to vinyl in the same system, you won’t know.

My point wasn’t that one was better than the other. Today, both are superb. But I do feel having both gives you an appreciation for the other and certain recordings excel on digital and others excel on vinyl. Having both gives you luxury. For example, listening to many of these great new presses on vinyl makes the digital sound nasty. Listening to some of the new digital recordings makes the vinyl sound nasty!

For example, this album was UNLISTENABLE on vinyl:

But the vinyl of this makes the SACD sound digital:

My two cents: if it was recorded in analog, listen in analog. If it was recorded in digital, listen in digital.

My point in why having both formats is nice.

 

[BlueFox]

Three hours so far of non stop musical bliss. I love to listen to music, not frack with it.

 

[KeithR]

Which Everything but the Girl album(s) is(are) their seminal albums? I'm not familiar with their music and am listening to their debut album now over Tidal. Very pleasant vibe.

The early stuff is more folk, poppy and the latter stuff I prefer is more electronic. Most of it was well recorded to begin with. Amplified and Walking Wounded are my favorites and probably their seminal work.

https://pitchfork.com/news/everything-but-the-girl-announce-amplified-heart-vinyl-reissue/

So they cut the new LP straight from the analog tapes apparently. Tracey Thorn also was involved with Massive Attack later in the 90s.

 

[Al M.]

It would all depend on the pressing I guess. A noisy pressing and it will ruin the presence. But ultimately, unless you listen to vinyl in the same system, you won’t know.

For me presence isn't really ruined by some noise on the pressing if the sound quality is excellent. Yet there are pressings that are compromised in the latter.

My point wasn’t that one was better than the other. Today, both are superb. But I do feel having both gives you an appreciation for the other and certain recordings excel on digital and others excel on vinyl. Having both gives you luxury. For example, listening to many of these great new presses on vinyl makes the digital sound nasty. Listening to some of the new digital recordings makes the vinyl sound nasty!

For example, this album was UNLISTENABLE on vinyl:

But the vinyl of this makes the SACD sound digital:

My two cents: if it was recorded in analog, listen in analog. If it was recorded in digital, listen in digital.

My point in why having both formats is nice.

As I said before, I do agree that sometimes the LP is just plain better, because the mastering/ digital transfer of the CD is compromised. But if it is nice to have vinyl too, at what expense and effort? For me it's just too much.

Again, if I'd be more into rock/pop, which I also love but listen to less at home than classical and jazz (and electronica), I might think somewhat differently. But I would still have a hard time with clicks and pops, while in my friends' systems they don't really bother me.

 

[Alpinist]

Personally, I wouldn't be happy if all I had was a single source to play music in my system.

My experience is that if you find one source component that thrills you every time you listen to it, the need for multiple sources quickly vanishes. That’s what happened to me. I feel it’s better to focus money on one phenomenal sounding source, whatever it may be, then to spread funds over two or more excellent sounding sources.

Ken

 

[mdp632]

My experience is that if you find one source component that thrills you every time you listen to it, the need for multiple sources quickly vanishes. That’s what happened to me. I feel it’s better to focus money on one phenomenal sounding source, whatever it may be, then to spread funds over two or more excellent sounding sources.

Ken

+1

I used to have a fairly nice (to me at least ) TT setup. However, I didn’t have the record collection built up as many did as I just got into vinyl over the past few years. I also didn’t grow up on records as many here did so, there wasn’t that nostalgic connection.

However, I found myself “obsessing “ over every component of the analog chain. My cart, my phone stage, the arm , etc..

Personally with my OCD ; it wasn’t working for me. I felt like I was constantly “chasing my tail” in my head. Even if I wasn’t purchasing a piece of gear, I was agonizing about the sound and setup; that I wasn’t enjoying listening to music as I should be.

I won’t argue that certain analog pressings and setups I’ve heard do sound amazing.

However, modern digital technology (to me) suffices enough. So, I sold it all and invested in a one box physical Disc player.

I still spin physical CDs exclusively and have that as my only source in my system. I don’t feel I’m missing out on anything.

Rather I’ve felt I’ve taken a giant leap forward in my system in terms of sonic quality and pure enjoyment. To me at least.

 

[Al M.]

My experience is that if you find one source component that thrills you every time you listen to it, the need for multiple sources quickly vanishes. That’s what happened to me. I feel it’s better to focus money on one phenomenal sounding source, whatever it may be, then to spread funds over two or more excellent sounding sources.

Ken

+ 2

I feel that you have so much more freedom to put resources into what matters most, if you focus on one thing.

In my case, I also could have put a good amount of money into a dedicated server in order to be able to play 'high rez' (my experience suggests that you can't do proper computer audio on the cheap). Instead I invested the money elsewhere in the chain. Most recently into a superb preamp (Octave HP 700) that reveals just how astonishingly good my CD replay really is. If I would not have single mindedly focused on this, none of digital would now be on that level in my system. Not even close.

 

[mep]

Mike, like you, having all three sources gives us a different perspective, each having wonderful qualities. For me, Vinyl has such presence. When I’m listening to vinyl (originally recorded to tape and not the recorded to digital files and then cut to vinyl), the “presence” vinyl has allows me to be part of the performance. Close your eyes and you suspend belief. You are part of the performance. You’re there. When I listen to a modest digital setup (which is all I have at home), I feel there is no doubt I’m listening to a recording of a performance. It lacks that magical presence. I suspect that’s part of what your guests heard as well.

But I also love digital for the convenience, finding new music, and the trouble free sound.

Frankly, I would encourage everyone to have both. There’s no right or wrong. Both are really terrific in their own right.


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While digital is super convenient, I wouldn't classify it as "trouble free" by any stretch of the imagination. There are all kinds of digital gremlins and the more digital dingleberries you add to your signal path, the more you increase your chances of things going wrong. The most common problem I see is losing the handshake between the server and the remote app which usually requires rebooting the iPad to reestablish the connection.

 

[mep]

My experience is that if you find one source component that thrills you every time you listen to it, the need for multiple sources quickly vanishes. That’s what happened to me. I feel it’s better to focus money on one phenomenal sounding source, whatever it may be, then to spread funds over two or more excellent sounding sources.

Ken

I respect your opinion and your approach Ken.

 

[Mike]

While digital is super convenient, I wouldn't classify it as "trouble free" by any stretch of the imagination. There are all kinds of digital gremlins and the more digital dingleberries you add to your signal path, the more you increase your chances of things going wrong. The most common problem I see is losing the handshake between the server and the remote app which usually requires rebooting the iPad to reestablish the connection.

The most common issue I see is more fundamental. Lousy A2D converters used in studios. This in the past 5 years has really changed with the Merging A2D converters, but most used from 1981 to about 2015 went from bad to mediocre at best. Thankfully the newer ones are very good, but now we battle compression.


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[mep]

The most common issue I see is more fundamental. Lousy A2D converters used in studios. This in the past 5 years has really changed with the Merging A2D converters, but most used from 1981 to about 2015 went from bad to mediocre at best. Thankfully the newer ones are very good, but now we battle compression.


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That's a different can of worms Mike. I wasn't referring to the SQ of digital, but the gremlins involved in setting up your digital rig with a headless server, D/A converter, and remote app.

 

[Al M.]

While digital is super convenient, I wouldn't classify it as "trouble free" by any stretch of the imagination. There are all kinds of digital gremlins and the more digital dingleberries you add to your signal path, the more you increase your chances of things going wrong. The most common problem I see is losing the handshake between the server and the remote app which usually requires rebooting the iPad to reestablish the connection.

One of the reasons why I don't like computer audio. My Simaudio CD transport gave not once a problem in 5 years. Simple pathway, clean solution.

 

[Jim Smith]

OK, I am not trying to have - or want to have - an argument. But...

In listening to hundreds of tts where the owner proclaimed it to be the best source, not one of them was set up as well as it could/should have been. Some were pretty close to being optimized, but the majority missed the mark in several areas.

I am not referring to basic mechanical set-up which most anyone can do, I am referring to those settings that require listening and adjusting until musical involvement reigns supreme.

IMO - and that's all it is - my opinion - way too many who claim their level of music of reproduction from vinyl to be superior are simply incorrect - often because they lack a true reference. Also, more often than not, their systems are not set-up well enough to truly reveal performance issues.

FWIW and for the record - I have not heard Mike's or Mike L.'s vinyl set-ups. :audiophile:

Vinyl can indeed be rewarding. But it typically seems to require a bit more effort & understanding from tt owners to actually reach & deliver its full potential.

A related - and more detailed - article I wrote for Copper e-mag some time ago:

https://www.psaudio.com/article/vinyl-vivid-or-veiled