What happened at WBF

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Peter Breuninger

Peter Breuninger

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First and foremost, I wish to apologize to anyone who was offended by my posts on WBF. My anger and disappointment with the direction of the forum caused me to lash at the membership, when in retrospect I should have lashed out at the offenders and management privately. I sincerely apologize to anyone that was personally hurt.

How it happened...
WBF suffered an exodus over the past two months of most of the founding members. The forum used to have a balance of objectivists to subjectivists. Over the past 18 months the Subs began to fall off of active posting. The Obs were beginning to dominate the threads, and their tone was confrontational, they like to challenge people, especially reviewers. Myles and I have discussed starting a forum where reviewers are welcome and manufactures can post without being continually challenged by the Obs (and even some Subs) on pricing, snake oil claims or public ridicule over failed transactions.

Also, beginning about 18 months ago, threads started popping up and turned into instant shouting matches, it was obvious the inmates were running the asylum. The moderators were ineffective and let the threads build and feed upon the dark side of the Internet where anyone with an email account can post using a pseudonym on any board without fear of repercussion. In fact as we know, many people post for just these reasons and enjoy asserting themselves as experts and naysayers to challenge anyone who comes into their path. The WBF became a hot bed for these very fellows. It became their sport.

Finally, nailing the coffin was THE site co-founder who asserted the code of the Obs (DBT, Charts, graphs, and measurements) into most every thread. I was sickened by this and left with an angry public door slam, within days the remaining reviewers resigned.

I love the high end, the industry, the people, the products. I could not in good faith, continue to participate in an environment where the high end itself was being continually challenged and held with distain.

Sincerely,

Peter B.
 
Hi Peter, I was lurking at WBF when the furball erupted. In short, all I want to say is I appreciate your site and all the effort that goes into it. Your enthusiasm shows in your videos and reviews. No one else in internetland is even close to putting out the quality of videos you have at AVShowrooms and for that I thank you.
 
Peter Breuninger said:
Myles and I have discussed starting a forum where reviewers are welcome and manufactures can post without being continually challenged by the Obs (and even some Subs) on pricing, snake oil claims or public ridicule over failed transactions.
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Hmmm....sounds like here at Audioshark. Reviewers and Manufacturers are participating and continue to always be welcome.
 
Peter, I am an upper 50's guy that has only returned to the hobby in the last 18months after a 25 year absence. I have gone to many places for info and knowledge. Audioshark has been particularly helpful for me. Your site AVShowrooms has also been invaluable. I google for something and often times one of your professional videos pops up. Just last nite I was watching a company profile that you did on the Cable Company. It is very informative to get a "behind the scenes" view of their operation.

I learn a great deal watching your productions. I admire your passion. I appreciate the insightful questions that you ask your interviewees.

As for what happens with some of the others out there on the internet who try and drag you down and distract you from your good work, I'll pararphase what General Patton once said:

Illegitimi non carborundum

Roughly translated from Latin it means don't let the bastards grind you down.

Keep your passion going Peter!
 
Here's a stupid question. What is the WBF? World Bodybuilding Federation? World Boxing Federation?
 
Hmm. I read both forums and enjoy them both. I thought Peter's rant was uncalled for, but I'm glad he has apologized here for it. I would hope he has apologized at WBF, too. Personally, I have enough conviction in my own thought processes that arguments from objectionists don't offend me, as a matter of fact I gain additional insight from them, whether to bolster my own assumptions and observations or to discount their observations and sometimes mistaken application of science. There are always scientific principles in effect not completely isolated or identified in one's otherwise scientific explanation of why something sounds the way it does in a home environment. Always. That is why the subjective opinion is so important. Of course assumptions based on subjectivism only can be a mistake also, if everything is not considered. Examples are many.
 
Peter Breuninger said:
Finally, nailing the coffin was THE site co-founder who asserted the code of the Obs (DBT, Charts, graphs, and measurements) into most every thread. I was sickened by this and left with an angry public door slam, within days the remaining reviewers resigned.
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Hey Peter, I appreciate what you do first off. The video series has been a welcome addition, and you do it very well.

I haven't been keeping up with WBF so don't know the specifics, but can imagine because we've all seen what you describe many times over across the various forums. I hope you, and all the reviewers will take this to heart.

It's not that the objectivists are wrong at all, only in their approach. Audio is full of zealots on both sides. I call them the Audio Taliban, disagree with their narrow view and they'll strap on a suicide vest oblivious of the damage caused. That goes for objectivists and subjectivists, either that focuses too heavily on one view is missing the point. But the message from the objectivists has been nearly completely ignored by reviewers, and that has led to (to borrow a term) "low information" buyers.

It's impossible IMO to argue that a combination of the two viewpoints is not the proper way to approach product reviews. Subjectivists need to realize that a lot can be explained with just a basic suite of measurements, and objectivists should realize that not everything we hear can currently be shown in measurements. Data and education is always good however, and it should be easy to recognize that the cynicism regarding reviews and reviewers stems from a lack of education and data.

As a designer/manufacturer, I learned a long time ago just how valuable proper data is to creating a good product. But I also learned that data alone can't get you to the promised land, it does at least get you well along that road. I do get frustrated when I see reviews that write things off as "synergy" or the such, when it could easily be explained with data. Because with the proper data and knowledge how to apply it, the customer could then use it in their own situation and make proper choices based on something other than blindly throwing darts.

What it all boils down to for me, this hobby is shrinking. There are certainly many reasons for that, primarily the destruction of our comfortable middle-class. But beyond that I see the frustration from customers all the time. They follow the words of others, and it often leads them to a point where after years they're still not happy and feel disillusioned. You and other reviewers are in a position to do something about that through education. That might require educating yourself as well, but you know what they say about with power comes responsibility? I would love to see reviewers start peeling back the layers when they write. It might upset some manufacturers, showing that their product is overpriced for what's inside, but in the end doing so would weed out the products that don't deliver as promised, and confidence in reviews would slowly be restored. Again IMO, that's a win for everybody.
 
Vapor1 said:
What it all boils down to for me, this hobby is shrinking. There are certainly many reasons for that, primarily the destruction of our comfortable middle-class. But beyond that I see the frustration from customers all the time. They follow the words of others, and it often leads them to a point where after years they're still not happy and feel disillusioned. You and other reviewers are in a position to do something about that through education. That might require educating yourself as well, but you know what they say about with power comes responsibility? I would love to see reviewers start peeling back the layers when they write. It might upset some manufacturers, showing that their product is overpriced for what's inside, but in the end doing so would weed out the products that don't deliver as promised, and confidence in reviews would slowly be restored. Again IMO, that's a win for everybody.
Click to expand...


You are on to something their Vapor ............... :)
 
"What it all boils down to for me, this hobby is shrinking."

2015 T.H.E. Show Newport Wrap Up - T.H.E Show Newport

The numbers are IN – on its 5th Anniversary, T.H.E. Show Newport exceeded its own record-breaking figures. In all categories, T.H.E. Show experienced over 8,500 attendees, exhibitors and guests. This exceeds the 2014 total by 1,300.

T.H.E. Show Newport has grown every year since the first ribbon-cutting in 2011 in size and status. 406 separate companies exhibited at T.H.E. Show this year, with over 170 “live” demo exhibits, plus over 120 booths. Attendees came from over 30 states within the U.S., plus visitors from over 15 different countries around the globe, including but not limited to: 2 provinces in Canada, Australia, Brazil, China, Denmark, Germany, Italy, Japan, Korea, Mexico, Netherlands, Singapore, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, Vietnam and more.
Also increasing in size this year was the Los Angeles and Orange County Audio Society.

T.H.E. Show brought them an additional 163 members and helped stage the new “Audio University” Seminars. The Society easily now predicts a 2,000 person membership soon – unquestionably the largest such Society in the World.


​
 
Just posted by WBF Site Founder, Steve Williams:

"FWIW he contacted me yesterday and read me the riot act about WBF and then told me about a jihad that has been raging for 30 years and that "I am welcome on AVshowroomsforums as a 'founding' member' and that was his personal invite to me. He also went on to say that if I join "I will have a chance at redemption" because WBF is lost and will never return and that I need to "man up"

I suggested to Peter that he really needs to see a doctor to get his medications adjusted because he seems to be suffering from delusions of grandeur. Many members here have already been asked to join his new forum where wankers aren't allowed and only he and he alone will separate the wheat from the chaff because at WBF we don't cater to audiophiles but rather pander to uneducated normal people

How does one say to him "open mouth and insert foot deeper"

So for those that want to hear his sermon from the mount from the self proclaimed savior of the hobby that he loves so dearly and save it from ruination you know where to find him
smile.png
"
 
I tried to post over at WBF a few times after learning about it here. I found it unfriendly and cliquish at the least. I still poke in at Audio Review now and then but rarely post anymore, but it's where I cut my teeth 20 some years ago. AK totally bores me because I am not a Vintage fanboy but I read and respond to a select few threads there.

This is THE place to hang, period!
 
Peter, I want to make the following point as respectfully as possible. I am, however, afraid making my point and not creating controversy may be mutuly exclusive propositions. For that I apoligize in advance, but I think the point is an important one for you to understand.

I have mentioned in other conversations on this forum, while I think you are a great guy and do some good work, I think you take subjectivism to an extreme, much to you detriment. Frankly, your motivation for doing so IMO deserves scrutiny.

An example would be your view on the Synergistic Research Hft. You not only gave it a good review but awarded it product of the year!! This kind of work absolutely mystifies me and deeply cuts against your credibility as a reviewer and a poster on this or any forum. If you are going to do these kind of things you darn well better have a thick skin and be prepared for all kind of snake oil type criticism. IMO, it is this kind of subjective, charlatanical spin from an otherwise apparently credible source which gives our hobby a very bad image.

If if you can give me an iota of evidence be it scienticly based objectivism or double blind subjectivisim that the Hft works as you say I will offer you my utmost and sincere apology for this post. As an aside, I am not a member at WBF now or have ever been in the past.

Like I said Peter, I like you and I want to like your stuff but I am not surprised objectivists have some very deep trust issues.
 
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