Vinyl Cleaning: VPI + Audio Desk + Klaudio

Myles B. Astor said:
Mike those issues have already been addressed in the reviews and by the machine's designers. It's a non-issue. Not to mention we're talking a different sonicator. Not a toy.

Emptying the tank depends on what type of LPs you clean and the pcts. If you do mainly new LP, a lot longer, maybe 150 LPs. If you primarily clean used LPs, maybe a 100 LPs. Water is cheap, $2 or so for distilled water.
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Not a toy? I thought all ultrasonic cleaners for every industry application were considered toys. I asked Santa for one when I was 7. :P

Heck, why wait for 100 LP's to change the water? If distilled water is all that's used with the Klaudio, then why not try to keep things as "sterile" as possible and just change/drain the water after each session of cleaning say, 10 LP's? Even going to the point of letting the guts air dry between cleaning sessions. That would seem like a good (and cheap) way to keep things from getting contaminated over time regardless of what the manufacturer or reviewers say.

...but then again, I'm not speaking from experience with an US RCM but rather, guessing how I'd use one.
 
MikeCh said:
Not a toy? I thought all ultrasonic cleaners for every industry use were considered toys. I asked Santa for one when I was 7. :P

Heck, why wait for 100 LP's to change the water? If distilled water is all that's used with the Klaudio, then why not try to keep things as "sterile" as possible and just change/drain the water after each session of cleaning say, 10 LP's? Even going to the point of letting the guts air dry between cleaning sessions. That would seem like a good (and cheap) way to keep things from getting contaminated over time regardless of what the manufacturer or reviewers say.
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I was referring to ones used for home jewelry purposes as you mentioned. And there are more powerful sonicators, higher frequencies, power, etc. The sonicators we used in biochemistry to disrupt cells in solution required ear protection.

As far as the water goes, knock yourself out. That was covered in my and Fremer's reviews. I think some of the questions raised are answered there. Thing is as the KLaudio designer points out, the sonicators pulverize everything. You can look at the water in the tank very easily and see whether or not it's clear. You can empty it and see what's on the bottom of the water tank. After 50 cleanings, not a lot of anything. As I said, if you clean really filthy LPs, you will need to,empty the tank more frequently. I just haven't seen any of the issues you've raised.

If it's that important to you, then there's the AD that uses a piece of foam to strain the particles out of the water wash. But you've read about the reliability issues though knock on wood, I never had any problems with my AD. But I switched to the KLaudio as I wrote about in my review because records cleaned on this machine simply sounded better.

I also don't understand the comment on sterility. Unless all your solutions are either run under pressure through something like 0.22 uM filters or run through an autoclave, the machine sterilized and the cleaning done in a laminar flow hood, nothing is sterile. The moment one takes something out from a laminar flow hood and put it in a inner sleeve it's unsterile.

YMMV...
 
Myles B. Astor said:
I was referring to ones used for home jewelry purposes as you mentioned. And there are more powerful sonicators, higher frequencies, power, etc. The sonicators we used in biochemistry to disrupt cells in solution required ear protection.

As far as the water goes, knock yourself out. That was covered in my and Fremer's reviews. I think some of the questions raised are answered there. Thing is as the KLaudio designer points out, the sonicators pulverize everything. You can look at the water in the tank very easily and see whether or not it's clear. You can empty it and see what's on the bottom of the water tank. After 50 cleanings, not a lot of anything. As I said, if you clean really filthy LPs, you will need to,empty the tank more frequently. I just haven't seen any of the issues you've raised.

If it's that important to you, then there's the AD that uses a piece of foam to strain the particles out of the water wash. But you've read about the reliability issues though knock on wood, I never had any problems with my AD. But I switched to the KLaudio as I wrote about in my review because records cleaned on this machine simply sounded better.

I also don't understand the comment on sterility. Unless all your solutions are either run under pressure through something like 0.22 uM filters or run through an autoclave, the machine sterilized and the cleaning done in a laminar flow hood, nothing is sterile. The moment one takes something out from a laminar flow hood and put it in a inner sleeve it's unsterile.

YMMV...
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Myles,

I mentioned cleaning a few household items with an ultrasonic cleaner. That doesn't mean I use a novelty item to do so. I believe ours is an old Branson unit that is not a toy.

My comment about keeping a "sterile" environment was written using quotation marks.....meaning, not literally sterile. Of course one cannot keep a truly sterile environment short of working with lab grade equipment and within lab conditions.

All I'm saying is that it might make sense to change the water if it costs pennies to do so rather then have things stagnate and re-wash with less than ideal fluid.
 
Just remember where all this took Howard Hughes. :) I change the water in the KL more frequently for new records (which often go straight into the KL) than for old records (which get pre-cleaned, and water rinsed/vacuumed on the Monks). I have some sterile non-impregnated lab wipes that I use to clean out the KL reservoir and the only occasion when I found any 'grime' was after I cleaned that Beatles Mono boxed set. I use reagent water in the KL- in for a penny, in for 12 dollars a gallon.
The combination of different methods works well for me on old records- many of which look clean but those old Vertigo Swirls and a bunch of other old records really benefitted from the enzyme soak, agitate, vacuum, water rinse stage before popping into the ultrasonic. As Myles knows, I've had both the AD and KL too. I actually dig the Monks, in the same way I like old British cars- not something you casually take out for a spin, requires a little more 'driver' involvement and the mechanical aspects are a bit antediluvean, but all that appeals to me. And the damn thing does a pretty good job. But, when I didn't have an ultrasonic for a week, I felt a little bereft.
 
@Myles B. Astor

What liquid cleaner do you suggest I purchase? Do you have url for me to purchase at?
 
@billhart

I received a new piece of vinyl today. I played it first on my McIntosh MT10 + Ortofon Windfeld. Sounded ok. Pop and Clicks and Static. I dropped into the Audio Desk. Boom! Sounds pristine and clear and have yet to hear a snap crackle pop.

Note. Had I done this though the Klaudio as I have with other vinyl, it would have been snap crackle pop. It is off right now at the Klaudio HQ, but I am not hopeful. I have been talking with Tim and he has been so un-empathetic. I imagine they will just send it back thus darling the KL paper weight hero of ht year in my office.

Thus far, the VPI and Audio Desk have been real champs.
 
Golucid said:
@billhart

I received a new piece of vinyl today. I played it first on my McIntosh MT10 + Ortofon Windfeld. Sounded ok. Pop and Clicks and Static. I dropped into the Audio Desk. Boom! Sounds pristine and clear and have yet to hear a snap crackle pop.

Note. Had I done this though the Claudio as I have with other vinyl, it would have been snap crackle pop. It is off right now at the Klaudio HQ, but I am not hopeful. I have been talking with Tim and he has been so un-empathetic. I imagine they will just send it back thus darling the KL paper weight hero of ht year in my office.

Thus far, the VPI and Audio Desk have been real champs.
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Have no basis to disagree with your experience, but as I mentioned on another forum where you raised the issue of the KL being ineffective, I suggested, based on what you described, that your KL might be defective, and thought you agreed. Sorry Tim is not supporting you. Keep in mind that most of my 'heavy lifting,' and indeed the vast majority of my vinyl purchases over the last several years, has been records from the mid-late 60's, some earlier, and some a little later. Those all benefited from combining conventional wash (enzyme type)/rinse and ultrasonic, rather than just using one type of machine. Whether it was cigarette (or other) smoke, cooking fumes, or other contaminants, it took some effort to get some of these records to a high state of play. There were occasions, too, where there would be a wispy sort of sibilance/tracing distortion (the last track of one side of After the Gold Rush, RE-1 press), that cleaning on one machine did not eliminate but the double-punch did an effective job in almost entirely eliminating it. Sometimes, new vinyl is nasty because of static, sometimes, because the pressing is defective; most of the detritus I've encountered on new vinyl has been surface lint from cheap paper liners, scuffs (from handling) and the occasional fingerprint.
Sometimes, off-center spindle holes, too, but cleaning won't do anything for that.
 
Golucid said:
@Myles B. Astor

What liquid cleaner do you suggest I purchase? Do you have url for me to purchase at?
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I assume you mean for your VPI?

Everyone has their favorite RCF. Some like the Audio Intelligent, others the Walker, others yet Disc Doctor. There are yet others from Keith Monks, Record Time from Musical Surroundings, Clearaudio, VPI and Unity Audio (and a few others I'm sure I've forgotten). Who would have thunk 35 years AD there would have been so many RCFs to choose from? Not me and I'm as about diehard analog as they come (at that time, I bought a lifetime supply of inner sleeves just in case they went away!).

I gave my VPI 16.5 away a while ago and have been subsisting on the KLaudio (with the AD in the closet). At that time, I was using either the Audio Intelligent (I think the #15) or MOFI enzyme cleaner (made by Brian Weitzel whose RRL cleaning fluid --eventually being folded into the "ordinary" MOFI record cleaning fluid-- I used for the better part of a decade before the enzyme cleaners) with a water rinse. The enzyme cleaners do a better job in reducing record surface noise but not in the league of the US machines.
 
I use a VPI 16.5 with AI fluids, listener select brushes and a home brew for thrift store records. (I don't have too many of those though). That combined with my methodology does a good job. A great deal of my records (95% of them used) are CD quiet, some are near that and yes, there will be just a few that turn out ok, listenable, but not amazing. I always thoroughly rinse of course and am careful about vacuuming. I read about a lot of folks overdoing it on vacuuming and complaining about static and noise and then blaming the machine or something else.
It is more labor intensive, but I don't mind because I like vinyl and am willing to do the work to enjoy it. Some records get clean and totally quiet in one pass with one fluid, some require 2 passes and maybe more fluids and a small few go 4 passes. That's where I stop. If a record does not come clean to my liking after 4 passes, out it goes to the local record shop as a donation. Fortunately, I have only had maybe 3 or 4 of those in the last few years.
That said though, knowing how ultrasonics works and having a US cleaner for my glasses demonstrating how it works (I know, different level, but same exact theory and effect), I'd love an US RCM to use as the final step, but with only 400+ records and being a non-audiophile and as a member of the lower class I can't justify or afford getting one. (If I had four digits worth of records or close to it I'd have to find a way to get a US RCM because I could not live without one with that many records).
Like I said though, I do alright for myself with my current set up and knowledge of cleaning records. (Something I dedicated myself to study for a year before cleaning my first record). I look at some of the things folks on that other site do to clean their records and just shake my head no. Bathroom cleaner, toilet cleaner, SoftScrub, Glue, Simple Green, straight Alcohol....Really? Obviously they have no clue as to what interacts with and effects PVC, stabilizers, etc. and what dirts are normally found on records and how things react with those dirts, etc. Really sad.
 
Yesterday I purchased Pink Floyd: Endless River - Deluxe Audiophile Edition [Vinyl].

I brought the LP home and spun Disc 1 Side A and immediately, the disk was audibly probably the worst sounding of all the vinyl I have listened too...to-date. From the blank lead-in to the first three minutes plus, scratchy sounds, pliff pliff pliff and other awful sounds. As though I was playing my stylus though mud and oh...muddy did it sound. I thought, sheesh. I just spend nearly $50 bucks on this...I'm going to have to return it to the store for a refund or exchange it.

I played Disc 1 Side B and Disc 2 Sides A-B. All sides very unpleasant, but Disc 1 Side A utter junk and a misery to listen too.

Then I remembered, uh... I have all these cleaning machines [VPI HW27 Typhoon + AudioDesk + Klaudio]. No need to despair after all.

The first step, I ran both discs through the Klaudio machine 3x at 5 minute intervals. [testing the sound between each cycle].

While there was sonic improvement, Disc 1 Side A was still virtually unplayable or rather, unenjoyable and boarded offensive to my ears. The opposite side and Disc 2 Side A-B were now tollerable. Even so, I was unable to get through the first 3 or so minutes of play on Disc 1 Side A without having to lift the tone arm and cycle through the KL several times.

I gave up :grumpy:

I ran all discs equal times through the AudioDesk with similar results stated above. Nothing revolutionary to report. Sonic clarity, yes and the noisiness of the disk also became clearer too.

I finally opened up the new bottle of L' Art du Son that I purchased a few weeks ago and created a bottle of 1 liter of RCM cleaning solution. I then returned to my now dedicated Vinyl cleaning room with both discs and, of course, plopped Disc 1 Side A onto the VPI HW27 Typhoon and began the cleaning process. I sprayed the disk liberally with the L' Art du Son and became the forward and backward cycle. I ran the reverse cycle for two minutes making certain the fluid did not evaporate and then an additional two minutes forward motion and reapplied the solution just to keep it very wet. Once these processes complete, I vacuumed the disc and then removed the vacuum tube and noticed that the felt had all this white junk. Mmmmm

I then tested Disc 1 Side A. BOOM! EVERY scratchy pliff pliff pliff gone! Infact, The song 'Things Left Unsaid' is a joy to hear. Simply beautify. I did a lot of reading about L' Art du Son and ran the disc through the same at length process a few more times - testing in between and found that the sonic clarity continued to expand. Instruments became airy, loose, energetic, forward, approachable, personable and free flowing rather than sounding strangled as it once was.

My final cleaning process:

VPI HW27 Typhoon + L' Art du Son RCM cleaner + AudioDesk + Klaudio >>>>>>Boom! & Rock 'N Roll!
 
David, you're making me wish I hadn't sold my VPI machine :(

I may have to get another one to pair with the Klaudio.
 
billhart said:
Have no basis to disagree with your experience, but as I mentioned on another forum where you raised the issue of the KL being ineffective, I suggested, based on what you described, that your KL might be defective, and thought you agreed.
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Oh, its been replaced with a brand spanking new one because they did find a transiant issue. even so, using both processes is working very well. Using ultrasonic does seem to improve sonic clarity...but vinyl noise remains for me. using a traditional RCM is making my vinyl listen remarable.
 
MDP said:
David, you're making me wish I hadn't sold my VPI machine :(

I may have to get another one to pair with the Klaudio.
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I'm headed that way, too, Mark. Just trying to figure out which machine to get.
 
After 10 total ultrasonic runs were done FIRST, TESTED (Played) and sounded sonically improved but so noisy that the discs remained unplayable.


I've attached photos so show what the vacuum tube felt looked like after one run through using L' Art du Son on the VPI old school vacuum style RCM.


[The 1st photo is Disc 1 Side A and the 2nd photo is Disc 1 Side B]
[The 3rd photo is Disc 2 Side A and the 4th photo is Disc 2 Side B]


Notice all the white debris? Each tube felt show various degrees of debris. The third photo show only a few dots of debris whereas the remaining three are fairly dirty.


Once the old school RCM cleaning was done, Pink Floyd: The Endless River sounded spectacular. And yes, I did run the discs through the Ultrasonics [both AudioDesk and Klaudio after the old school test run to remove any remaining debris as well as any cleaning agent]


As I have mentioned repeatedly, I concurrently have all three machines and am aggressively testing. Thus far, using both Vacuum and Ultrasonic work great together.


Perhaps ClearAudio is on to something with there Double Matrix Sonic.
 
David, I shared your findings with a friend who has the Klaudio and he was not surprised. I'm going to get him to clean some records on his Klaudio, bring them over, we will listen and then clean them on my AudioDesk, listen again and compare. To be fair, we should also do the opposite. Clean some on my AD first, listen, clean on his Klaudio and then compare. Hopefully we can get this done.
 
Golucid said:
Oh, its been replaced with a brand spanking new one because they did find a transiant issue. even so, using both processes is working very well. Using ultrasonic does seem to improve sonic clarity...but vinyl noise remains for me. using a traditional RCM is making my vinyl listen remarable.
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Perhaps a different stylus would solve the issue. Or there's something off with the cartridge or alignment. I don't have any of the issues you describe with my vinyl. Even old LPs.

I also wonder if that RCF uses a LAST like substance. Hope not.
 
Myles B. Astor said:
Perhaps a different stylus would solve the issue. Or there's something off with the cartridge or alignment. I don't have any of the issues you describe with my vinyl. Even old LPs.I also wonder if that RCF uses a LAST like substance. Hope not.
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I have a brand new Ortofon Windfeld installed by a ClearAudio installation professional. L' Art du Son is definately not a LAST chemical.
 
Mike said:
David, I shared your findings with a friend who has the Klaudio and he was not surprised. I'm going to get him to clean some records on his Klaudio, bring them over, we will listen and then clean them on my AudioDesk, listen again and compare. To be fair, we should also do the opposite. Clean some on my AD first, listen, clean on his Klaudio and then compare. Hopefully we can get this done.
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And compare on a vacuum system too. Last night, i repeated the process on another vinyl and picked up loads of junk too. [Diva Soundtrack]. Sounds remarkable now. For me, using both machine types achieves Nirvana.
 
Interesting comparisons David, thanks for sharing all your work.

I find it a bit puzzling that if the US RCM's are supposed to be as good as they are touted that there would be that much white gunk left for the VPI vacuum system to remove. Why didn't the US RCM machines remove that gunk during one of the (three or ten US cycles combined did you say?) passes beforehand? Could it be possible that the US machines loosened that gunk but had no way to remove it during the US cycle so it re-attached?

The way I understand it, the US process is supposed to completely pulverize any of the foreign matter/debris/detritus so it's interesting that there was that much gunk that came off and onto the VPI tube wand.

Would be interested to see if you have similar results with other records now that you're using the three-step-three-machine process as your standard.

Thanks.
 
Before my audio deske I had a VPI 16.5 and tried lots of different cleaning agents. The one that proved least harmful and yet cleaned the best (quiet and no haze / opened everything up) was the L' Art du Son. I wish there was fast automatic RCM like auto desk that would use L' Art du Son
 
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