a.wayne
Well-known member
you might be right. but I ran out of floor space.
A blessing for dealing with those not able to understand the power necessary for real world dynamic's..
THE ultimate system
- Thread starter AJR
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A blessing for dealing with those not able to understand the power necessary for real world dynamic's..
a.wayne
Well-known member
SCAudiophile
Active member
I kinda like my little old system.......and my choice(s) of amplifiers, dart 458's + Lamm ML3 Signatures (just arrived) is right up there.....and then there is the whole 800 pound gorilla of the building and room to consider. you start there and I did that part. MSB Select II + a couple of Studer A-820's and the new AS-2000 tt. the 1500 pound per side, twin tower MM7's aren't the sexy name, but humble most other choices and have unique coherence aspects at the top of the food chain as well as the 97db, 7 ohm efficiency to allow those ML3's to really sing.
Mike,..another beautiful photo of an amazing system; love how those amps and overall setup of them speak volumes,...BEAUTIFUL!!!
Mike Lavigne
Member
thanks. after a couple of weeks, really enjoying the Lamm ML3's. later today i'll be switching back to the dart 458's for the first time and see how I feel about that and what music it opens up to me.
Mike Lavigne
Member
first impressions switching back to the dart 458's, which had been un-plugged now for 2 weeks.
--tonally flat and lifeless for the first 5-10 minutes.
--at about 15 minutes a bit of tonal life creeps in and gently ramps up for about an hour at a fairly strong rate, then slower since then.
--now at 2 hours it's maybe 60% there.
immediately at 'turn-on' the top end air is considerably improved, as is the sense of authority and scale. more room filling. the micro-dynamics are much more present, with greater overall energy projection. bass heft is a bit less forceful, but more broadly gripping. vocals were somewhat washed out in the first 11-15 minutes, but soon after got definition and substance.....but not in ML3 territory for sure. we will see later how close they come.....I don't expect them to get all the way to the ML3's in that way.
do I miss the ML3's? somewhat yes at this point. do I appreciate the dart's additions? sure; but the synergy is not yet all the way back. and I've not yet played any 'full-tilt boggie' big music......which is a big part of my system building and important to me. i'll comment when I get to that part.
it's how I deal with this in-between part that I have to adapt to, and how that will play out in visitor sessions where i'm switching mid session. I could see planning a meal at switchover point and give it an hour. or maybe starting with a fully synergized darTZeel and then switching to the ML3's will be less of a compromise. i'll have to figure it out.
--tonally flat and lifeless for the first 5-10 minutes.
--at about 15 minutes a bit of tonal life creeps in and gently ramps up for about an hour at a fairly strong rate, then slower since then.
--now at 2 hours it's maybe 60% there.
immediately at 'turn-on' the top end air is considerably improved, as is the sense of authority and scale. more room filling. the micro-dynamics are much more present, with greater overall energy projection. bass heft is a bit less forceful, but more broadly gripping. vocals were somewhat washed out in the first 11-15 minutes, but soon after got definition and substance.....but not in ML3 territory for sure. we will see later how close they come.....I don't expect them to get all the way to the ML3's in that way.
do I miss the ML3's? somewhat yes at this point. do I appreciate the dart's additions? sure; but the synergy is not yet all the way back. and I've not yet played any 'full-tilt boggie' big music......which is a big part of my system building and important to me. i'll comment when I get to that part.
it's how I deal with this in-between part that I have to adapt to, and how that will play out in visitor sessions where i'm switching mid session. I could see planning a meal at switchover point and give it an hour. or maybe starting with a fully synergized darTZeel and then switching to the ML3's will be less of a compromise. i'll have to figure it out.
Kuoppis
New member
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2015
- Messages
- 5,203
Great summary Mike, many thanks. Do I read your description correctly, that you get greater tonal density from the Lamm’s? Or is that just during warm-up?
In case you plan to demo both systems within a short time window, I would just put in another 2-plug extension cord to feed the idle amps with power while you are demoing the others. As the gradual sound improvement is a result of amp warm-up, you should be able to avoid that at least partly, if the amps are already warm. For warm-up you don’t need good power, just some power. Switching the already warm amps to your main power system should shorten the process.
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In case you plan to demo both systems within a short time window, I would just put in another 2-plug extension cord to feed the idle amps with power while you are demoing the others. As the gradual sound improvement is a result of amp warm-up, you should be able to avoid that at least partly, if the amps are already warm. For warm-up you don’t need good power, just some power. Switching the already warm amps to your main power system should shorten the process.
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Mike Lavigne
Member
this morning (with the dart in standby all night) things seem back to normal with the dart, as all the cables and especially the grounding cables have settled in and sound right. i'm hearing typically excellent meat on the bones and degrees of tonal density. we will see as I revisit some different recordings how we are doing.
right now i'm not compelled to put the ML3's back in, it's more i'm enjoying a more open, relaxed, effortless and spacious musical world. but hey; this has been my environment for years so no surprise. the same piano digital track I had on last night that was not quite doing it, is now just ducky.
i'm happy to switch these posts (if I should) about the ML3-458 experience to it's own thread as I don't wan't to screw up this 'ultimate system' thread.
right now i'm not compelled to put the ML3's back in, it's more i'm enjoying a more open, relaxed, effortless and spacious musical world. but hey; this has been my environment for years so no surprise. the same piano digital track I had on last night that was not quite doing it, is now just ducky.
i'm happy to switch these posts (if I should) about the ML3-458 experience to it's own thread as I don't wan't to screw up this 'ultimate system' thread.
Good to hear Mike. It sounds like the big 458's are just too delicious sounding and "right" sounding to ignore. Have you ever tried big tube amps? VAC 450iQ monos for example. ARC 750SE monos? There is probably a good synergy between the bass driver amplification and the big Dart's.
Mike Lavigne
Member
I've had big CJ's (LP275M) and the Berning 211/845's in my system in the last few years (since I had my dart 458's) to name a couple. and I've heard lots of big tubes at shows multiple times. I typically like them to various degrees.
but I always find I easily prefer the overall performance of the big darTZeel's to any high power tube amplifier. the lower noise and greater speed and control of the darts, along with it's refinement, tips the balance. big tubes sound like big tubes to me. OTOH the ML3's bring a degree of musicality to my system a few degrees of magnitude greater than those big tube amps so offer a few steps farther alternate viewpoint.
if I lived with a few of the above named big tube amps you never know what that might do, but I've never really been even much tempted by them. OTOH when I've heard the ML3's in other systems it has always grabbed me. and it grabs me now in my system too. this is an emotion based hobby, and right now the ML3's and big darts both do it for me. and I've yet to hear anything very close to either at their strengths.
a.wayne
Well-known member
I do agree,
Big tooby's dont do anything for me over SS , only SET's brings something else to the table that's hard to beat...
GiorgioNuvolari
Member
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2018
- Messages
- 54
Hello,
I hope you will not mind a newbie view
I am taken by musicality, precision, technology but also design and execution.
As I transition between residences, I am fortunate to be in a position to put together my ultimate system.
For a small room:
Devialet Expert Pro -> Magico Q1
For the main room:
MSB Select or totaldac d1-twelve -> Naim Statement -> Magico M6
best,
gn
I hope you will not mind a newbie view
I am taken by musicality, precision, technology but also design and execution.
As I transition between residences, I am fortunate to be in a position to put together my ultimate system.
For a small room:
Devialet Expert Pro -> Magico Q1
For the main room:
MSB Select or totaldac d1-twelve -> Naim Statement -> Magico M6
best,
gn
Mike Lavigne
Member
Hello,
I hope you will not mind a newbie view
I am taken by musicality, precision, technology but also design and execution.
As I transition between residences, I am fortunate to be in a position to put together my ultimate system.
For a small room:
Devialet Expert Pro -> Magico Q1
For the main room:
MSB Select or totaldac d1-twelve -> Naim Statement -> Magico M6
best,
gn
hello Giorgio, welcome to Audioshark.
I like your choices, particularly the MSB Select II.
best,
Mike
GiorgioNuvolari
Member
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2018
- Messages
- 54
Thank you, Mike, I have read whatever I could find across a number of forums and very much appreciate your contributions and sharing of the Select II experience!
I will most likely have to make a choice between totaldac and MSB based on auditioning d1-seven and Reference. I will be reaching out for help
best,
gn
I will most likely have to make a choice between totaldac and MSB based on auditioning d1-seven and Reference. I will be reaching out for help
best,
gn
Mike Lavigne
Member
Thank you, Mike, I have read whatever I could find across a number of forums and very much appreciate your contributions and sharing of the Select II experience!
I will most likely have to make a choice between totaldac and MSB based on auditioning d1-seven and Reference. I will be reaching out for help
best,
gn
happy to assist if I can. I do think highly of the MSB Reference dac. so best wishes with your investigations.....I don't think you can go wrong with those two choices.
GiorgioNuvolari
Member
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2018
- Messages
- 54
The challenge for me will be to make a decision whether to go with the top performers from each manufacturer based on trying to understand the 'house', or 'signature' sonic character while listening to d1-seven and Reference, notwithstanding the excellence of those two in their own right. It will be fun!
Best, gn
Best, gn
Good to see you got tempted and took my VAC450 suggestion. The ones with iQ are very nice. No fussing with bias. Hopefully they work out for you.
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Mike Lavigne
Member
we will see; i'm listening to the VAC Statement 450's (not the iQ versions) now. but I did not pursue them (or turn them down either).
my friend made me an offer I could not refuse, partly with all the suggestions to try 'big tubes'. he said come and get them and try them for a while......and see what you think.
they sound 'big' and 'liquid' and 'authoritative' as you would expect and seem to perfectly integrate with the active bass towers of my MM7's.
if the darTZeel 458's and Lamm ML3 Signatures together was crazy, not sure the word we use for then adding the VAC Statement 450 mono blocks. 'crowded' maybe.
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we will see; i'm listening to the VAC Statement 450's (not the iQ versions) now. but I did not pursue them (or turn them down either).
my friend made me an offer I could not refuse, partly with all the suggestions to try 'big tubes'. he said come and get them and try them for a while......and see what you think.
they sound 'big' and 'liquid' and 'authoritative' as you would expect and seem to perfectly integrate with the active bass towers of my MM7's.
if the darTZeel 458's and Lamm ML3 Signatures together was crazy, not sure the word we use for then adding the VAC Statement 450 mono blocks. 'crowded' maybe.
Beautiful. The thing about the iQ versions is you can try different KT based tubes like the 150’s or 120’s and having had the non-iQ 200’s and now the iQ200’s, there is a substantial difference having perfect bias all the time. Substantial.
At the event last week we used the Select II into the VAC 200iQ monos and it was outstanding sound.
I’m fortune enough to have my store right near VAC (5 minutes) and spend time at the factory often. They are dedicated artisans that’s for sure.
The Statement Phonostage is my dream piece.
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Mike Lavigne
Member
I've heard the 450iQ mono's in shows, but never heard the regular 450's and iQ versions back to back so I will have to take your word for the differences. and no doubt those type of upgrades can be significant.
in any case, I think the Statement 450's are a good representative of what big tubes are capable of. so it's a good in-system data point to me going forward as to how this type of amplifier works in my system and compares to both the big darts and ML3's.