The Secondary Market

Randy Myers said:
Randy Myers said:
This among many other reasons is why McIntosh has one of the best resale values of any manufacture. I have sold several pieces of gear over the years. The pieces that always seem to sell almost immediately are McIntosh.
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The Mcintosh amps and preamps I've owned have zero cost of ownership. I can sell them for more than I bought them for. To my knowledge no other brand has pulled this off. We don't talk about their Pre/Pros, whose values drop like a rock. :) But that's true for every manufacturer.

What does McIntosh do differently? They stock a lot of parts. They sell service manuals for all their gear. They have a decent network of warranty service centers in addition to the factory. They keep models in the line for a long time. My MC 2301's were introduced in 2008, 16 years ago. For non-warranty repairs, they don't care how you came to possess the gear needing service. They just fix it.

They are far from perfect. Their distribution is totally screwed up. For warranty work, they are sticklers. If you didn't buy it from a dealer, you are SOL. Like a lot of other manufacturers., they have a hard time with parts obsolescence. Things like optical drives come to mind.

This thread has helped me better understand how the manufacturer/dealer network operates. Thanks to all.
 
I agree and will add that their quality and customer experience is critical to them. They understand this more so than any other company I have dealt with. I have previously related my experience with a now ex-dealer committing fraud on a new amplifier I ordered. They stepped in and went as far as having a dealer from three hours away drive to my home and install the amplifier (of course they compensated the dealer).

After a short time one of the meters was not acting right. It would not come on until the amp was warmed up. Not a huge deal, but McIntosh reply was telling. He said every piece new out of our factory we expect to be perfect. Anything but this is unacceptable for us. He arranged to send a new one to the dealer and paid them to bring it down to my home and exchange it in my rack for me.

They even followed up by sending me one of their gorgeous books on their history (not a cheap book), as their apologized for the issue I experienced. Yes, with this deal they made nothing, obviously. However, they benefited and I am sure gained a lot in the long run. I told the story to the president of the audio club I was in back in California. He was amazed and said his respect for McIntosh was off the charts after hearing this.
 
Mike said:
Resale of goods offers no value whatsoever to the manufacturer - despite whatever you may think. Let me give you a real world example:

Let’s assume a CD player manufacturer does allow the transfer of warranty. The original owner received it via freight - on a pallet. He then sells it to someone over the internet and ships it Fedex. The fedex sorting station has conveyor belts which always causes a tumbling of the box. The tumbling motion is destructive to the transport mechanism. The new owner gets it and it has issues loading the CD. He calls the manufacturer to repair under warranty. Fair? No.

The warranty is extended to the original purchaser only in many (most) cases.

If you want warranty, buy new. Otherwise you live with the tail light warranty in most cases.
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I had a similar real world experience, but had superb support from the manufacturer.

~10 yrs ago I decided to purchase a Conrad Johnson Premier 350 amp. They were no longer in production, so I purchased a "lightly used" one from a dealer out West, but it arrived with something rattling around inside and wouldn't turn on. The dealer contacted C-J, and they had me ship the amp directly back to them. Turns out a capacitor had sheared off during shipping. Conrad Johnson repaired it, confirmed there was no other damage, and shipped it back to me. That degree of support convinced me to later purchase a NEW C-J CT-5 preamp from the same dealer.

Martin Logan is another manufacturer with a reputation for providing excellent support even if you purchased used. Unfortunately, I'll be testing ML's current customer service, as one of my old BalancedForce 210 subs went kaput yesterday.
 
Randy Myers said:
I agree and will add that their quality and customer experience is critical to them. They understand this more so than any other company I have dealt with. I have previously related my experience with a now ex-dealer committing fraud on a new amplifier I ordered. They stepped in and went as far as having a dealer from three hours away drive to my home and install the amplifier (of course they compensated the dealer).

After a short time one of the meters was not acting right. It would not come on until the amp was warmed up. Not a huge deal, but McIntosh reply was telling. He said every piece new out of our factory we expect to be perfect. Anything but this is unacceptable for us. He arranged to send a new one to the dealer and paid them to bring it down to my home and exchange it in my rack for me.

They even followed up by sending me one of their gorgeous books on their history (not a cheap book), as their apologized for the issue I experienced. Yes, with this deal they made nothing, obviously. However, they benefited and I am sure gained a lot in the long run. I told the story to the president of the audio club I was in back in California. He was amazed and said his respect for McIntosh was off the charts after hearing this.
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I also had excellent experience with McIntosh customer service when a meter failed. They stand behind their products.
 
No issues with McIntosh either. When my 901’s caught on fire (both of them!), I called McIntosh and they gave they sent me to a local repair place. They worked with them to get parts and a few months later, good as new!

My Richard Vandersteen story: when I was a Vandersteen dealer, I had a guy from Port Charlotte visit. He came in a big old GM suburban. He brought about 10 amps to try on the speakers. Well, some of them were 25-30 years old. With Vandersteen speakers, you have their goofy filter boxes and you have to know the output impedance of the amp, then open the stupid little box, and adjust the 1950 circa dip switches to match it to the impedance. Well, a few of his amps were so old, we couldn’t find any specs online. He had no manual or any idea. Google results didn’t provide any intel at all.

So, the next day, I called Richard and explained to him what happened. I asked, “in a pinch, can we just use a default setting. It won’t be perfect, but will work, like 100 ohms?”

Well…

He launches into this tirade “you fucking lazy mother fucking dealers. You lazy fuckers just want to sit there and do nothing….”

I politely said, “Richard, I don’t think this is going to work long term. I’m done representing your brand.”

So when people ask “why don’t you represent X any more?” It’s often stuff like this.

Life is too short to deal with ignorant fools.
 
Mike said:
No issues with McIntosh either. When my 901’s caught on fire (both of them!), I called McIntosh and they gave they sent me to a local repair place. They worked with them to get parts and a few months later, good as new!

My Richard Vandersteen story: when I was a Vandersteen dealer, I had a guy from Port Charlotte visit. He came in a big old GM suburban. He brought about 10 amps to try on the speakers. Well, some of them were 25-30 years old. With Vandersteen speakers, you have their goofy filter boxes and you have to know the output impedance of the amp, then open the stupid little box, and adjust the 1950 circa dip switches to match it to the impedance. Well, a few of his amps were so old, we couldn’t find any specs online. He had no manual or any idea. Google results didn’t provide any intel at all.

So, the next day, I called Richard and explained to him what happened. I asked, “in a pinch, can we just use a default setting. It won’t be perfect, but will work, like 100 ohms?”

Well…

He launches into this tirade “you fucking lazy mother fucking dealers. You lazy fuckers just want to sit there and do nothing….”

I politely said, “Richard, I don’t think this is going to work long term. I’m done representing your brand.”

So when people ask “why don’t you represent X any more?” It’s often stuff like this.

Life is too short to deal with ignorant fools.
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Wow.... how can he still be in business?
 
Mike said:
No issues with McIntosh either. When my 901’s caught on fire (both of them!), I called McIntosh and they gave they sent me to a local repair place. They worked with them to get parts and a few months later, good as new!

My Richard Vandersteen story: when I was a Vandersteen dealer, I had a guy from Port Charlotte visit. He came in a big old GM suburban. He brought about 10 amps to try on the speakers. Well, some of them were 25-30 years old. With Vandersteen speakers, you have their goofy filter boxes and you have to know the output impedance of the amp, then open the stupid little box, and adjust the 1950 circa dip switches to match it to the impedance. Well, a few of his amps were so old, we couldn’t find any specs online. He had no manual or any idea. Google results didn’t provide any intel at all.

So, the next day, I called Richard and explained to him what happened. I asked, “in a pinch, can we just use a default setting. It won’t be perfect, but will work, like 100 ohms?”

Well…

He launches into this tirade “you fucking lazy mother fucking dealers. You lazy fuckers just want to sit there and do nothing….”

I politely said, “Richard, I don’t think this is going to work long term. I’m done representing your brand.”

So when people ask “why don’t you represent X any more?” It’s often stuff like this.

Life is too short to deal with ignorant fools.
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I thought you were referring to Richard when you said "dip switch".
 
Mike said:
No issues with McIntosh either. When my 901’s caught on fire (both of them!), I called McIntosh and they gave they sent me to a local repair place. They worked with them to get parts and a few months later, good as new!

My Richard Vandersteen story: when I was a Vandersteen dealer, I had a guy from Port Charlotte visit. He came in a big old GM suburban. He brought about 10 amps to try on the speakers. Well, some of them were 25-30 years old. With Vandersteen speakers, you have their goofy filter boxes and you have to know the output impedance of the amp, then open the stupid little box, and adjust the 1950 circa dip switches to match it to the impedance. Well, a few of his amps were so old, we couldn’t find any specs online. He had no manual or any idea. Google results didn’t provide any intel at all.

So, the next day, I called Richard and explained to him what happened. I asked, “in a pinch, can we just use a default setting. It won’t be perfect, but will work, like 100 ohms?”

Well…

He launches into this tirade “you fucking lazy mother fucking dealers. You lazy fuckers just want to sit there and do nothing….”

I politely said, “Richard, I don’t think this is going to work long term. I’m done representing your brand.”

So when people ask “why don’t you represent X any more?” It’s often stuff like this.

Life is too short to deal with ignorant fools.
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I have another Vandersteen story where Richard was not necessarily completely to blame but nevertheless complicit.

Sometime in the 90's my entire stereo system was stolen. I walked into a local dealer planning on spending my generous insurance check and adding cash to it. I was in the mood for a serious upgrade. :) Richard was talking to the store owner. They barely acknowledged my entrance. The store was empty. I wandered into each room in search of sonic bliss. I was in the store at least 20 minutes. Not one word from the owner. He and Richard shared a bromance while I languished.

I walked out without talking to anyone. I found another store where I bought an entire system. It became "my" store through many upgrades.
 
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Dizzie said:
I have another Vandersteen story where Richard was not necessarily completely to blame but nevertheless complicit.

Sometime in the 90's my entire stereo system was stolen. I walked into a local dealer planning on spending my generous insurance check and adding cash to it. I was in the mood for a serious upgrade. :) Richard was talking to the store owner. They barely acknowledged my entrance. The store was empty. I wandered into each room in search of sonic bliss. I was in the store at least 20 minutes. Not one word from the owner. He and Richard shared a bromance while I languished.

I walked out without talking to anyone. I found another store where I bought an entire system. It became "my" store through many upgrades.
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They probably did you a favor by causing you to go elsewhere.
 
Frank Van Altsine and AVAHiFi were fabulous to deal with. It did not matter if you bought gear new or used. He would repair it for you and he would sell your old AVA gear. He for the most part was really nice to customers until his last year. I heard he could be a little cranky.
 
Researching and reading a warranty statement before you buy something used is a very good idea. Many of those selling used don't understand the realities of the business. I believe that most companies are good and have good intentions. Some are great and will go out of their way to help, however circumstances determine everything and these nice stories are only isolated incidents.
Most warranties are to the ORIGINAL purchaser only.
Most warranties have exceptions
Most warranties require the consumer to do and pay for something
A good dealer should help if they sold the item and I believe they will as they appreciate your business.

Expecting someone that you didn't do business with to drop everything a loose time and money is not realistic.

Getting the lowest price upfront is many times not the best price long term. As a dealer I want to help and keep my clients happy if I can, does some guy on audiogon feel the same way?
 
BendingWave said:
Researching and reading a warranty statement before you buy something used is a very good idea. Many of those selling used don't understand the realities of the business. I believe that most companies are good and have good intentions. Some are great and will go out of their way to help, however circumstances determine everything and these nice stories are only isolated incidents.
Most warranties are to the ORIGINAL purchaser only.
Most warranties have exceptions
Most warranties require the consumer to do and pay for something
A good dealer should help if they sold the item and I believe they will as they appreciate your business.

Expecting someone that you didn't do business with to drop everything a loose time and money is not realistic.

Getting the lowest price upfront is many times not the best price long term. As a dealer I want to help and keep my clients happy if I can, does some guy on audiogon feel the same way?
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I do kinda laugh though when people in some countries will brag about how "our laws require we have XXX years warranty which is better than your laws that don't require that - isn't that great?".

They have no idea that they paid EXTRA for that up front - it's baked into the price.

People seem to have no concept that nothing is free and everything needs to get paid for one way or another.
 
Dizzie said:
I have another Vandersteen story where Richard was not necessarily completely to blame but nevertheless complicit.

Sometime in the 90's my entire stereo system was stolen. I walked into a local dealer planning on spending my generous insurance check and adding cash to it. I was in the mood for a serious upgrade. :) Richard was talking to the store owner. They barely acknowledged my entrance. The store was empty. I wandered into each room in search of sonic bliss. I was in the store at least 20 minutes. Not one word from the owner. He and Richard shared a bromance while I languished.

I walked out without talking to anyone. I found another store where I bought an entire system. It became "my" store through many upgrades.
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Yup, a very dumb owner. At the very least he should have asked if there was anything he could help with, play for you, etc. If Richard was any good with customers, he could have used this as a great opportunity to show case his speakers, at the very least. After reading some of these stories it is beyond me how his speakers have been on the market as long as they have. Sure, they are decent speakers. Some absolutely love them; however, it is not like they are God's gift or anything close to that.

As a follow up. I just tried to find some information, pricing, etc., for the hell of it. What a load of crap. Good luck finding a dealer, actually figuring out how much they will cost, a place to listen to them. How the hell does this guy stay in business?
 
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Michaels HiFi said:
I do kinda laugh though when people in some countries will brag about how "our laws require we have XXX years warranty which is better than your laws that don't require that - isn't that great?".

They have no idea that they paid EXTRA for that up front - it's baked into the price.

People seem to have no concept that nothing is free and everything needs to get paid for one way or another.
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Momdami audio LOL
 
Mike said:
So when people ask “why don’t you represent X any more?” It’s often stuff like this.

Life is too short to deal with ignorant fools.
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I have a few of those as well. I want business partners not some G-d telling me how to run my business and everything is not his fault.
 
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