KeithR
Active member
Al, more like you continue to try to justify your own value purchase. Until you actually borrow a new MSB architecture dac you simply won't know anything.
The MSB Premier review I didn't write
- Thread starter Billt1
- Start date
Al, more like you continue to try to justify your own value purchase. Until you actually borrow a new MSB architecture dac you simply won't know anything.
KeithR, respectfully, I am not getting that sense from Al. It seems like he and others (like myself) who have not had an opportunity to hear msb/their top tier offerings would like to know the basic sound signature of the msb. This has been a difficult question to answer - from what I understand, it's special and not fatiguing, but otherwise I can't tell decipher much about the sound. Meanwhile, it's relatively easy to get some user feedback on the sound signature of various amps, and speakers. I get it, "it sounds like music" but that's not super helpful. All that said, I (and others i'm sure) appreciate Billt1's listening notes and details and hope he continues to update us
Keith, I am not trying to justify anything. It is true that I won't know what MSB owners mean until I have heard a recent MSB in my system. On the other hand I am baffled at what I am supposed to be missing given what I hear in my system, compared to what is claimed about MSB. And as I pointed out, you cannot know what I hear in my system.
Thank you, Skanda. You precisely put the finger on the problem (while I wrote my last post).
Let me report on some differences between the DACs that I have owned in more recent times:
Wadia 12 (from 1994 with opamp mod 1997, but owned until 2013)
Berkeley Alpha DAC 2
Yggdrasil
As far as natural sound and digital edge goes, this is best exemplified on orchestral massed violins. The Wadia 12 was not very detailed, and the silky sheen on the violin sound was absent. The Berkeley was much more detailed, and for the first time I heard silky sheen on violin sound from a DAC, thus a much more natural sound, and there was less glassy hardness. Yet the Yggy portrays an even more natural and finely resolved sound of massed violins, with even less glassy hardness and harshness, especially on fortissimo passages where the Berkeley still sometimes had a tougher time. And most recently, the violin sound has further improved quite substantially with the ceiling diffusers, which eliminate distorting reflections in my room.
The difference in naturalness of sound between the Berkeley and the Yggy is also evident in the timbral palette. Trumpet and solo violin can sound with more body on the Yggy, yet at the same time the high register of trumpet can also sound more piercing and brighter on the Yggy, more in line with live sound. High registered massed violins also sound brighter on the Yggy, whereas the Berkeley is too midrange-y on this material. On the other hand, flute usually sounds darker on the Yggy, also more in line with the real sound of the instrument.
Rhythm & timing took a huge leap forward between the Wadia 12 and the Berkeley; the latter was the very first DAC that I heard that could truly rock (the Wadia was quite good on jazz, even though also there the Berkeley was better). But as good as the Berkeley was, the Yggy is even better on rhythm & timing, a true rhythmic animal -- I haven't yet heard better rhythm from a turntable.
Do I think the Yggy is perfect? No. It might have even more body and weight of sound, for example, even though it is quite good in this area. It is also better on body from lower midrange to mid-bass than, for example, the dCS Vivaldi; the latter has better deep bass (I have heard numerous direct comparisons between Yggy and Vivaldi in a friend's system).
True. On the other hand, the converse can also hold: transients may be softened, and not sharp enough. This is sometimes found on less than stellar analog playback systems, or on LP pressings of lesser quality (top analog playback of a great LP is a different matter). Digital can also be made to sound more mellow than is realistic.
I am a bit suspicious when I hear about a non-fatiguing sound. Is the lack of fatigue due to a more perfect and realistic rendition of music, or due to a softening of sound?
KeithR
Active member
Please note the many MSB comments and threads where the MSB signature has been described here and at WBF. Al has questioned these threads many times. At some point you just have to hear one- it is revelatory (at least for me) and has changed completely what I expect of digital.
Another thing, there hasn’t been a single Ref or Select dac on Audiogon for several years now. Says a lot.
Jack
Active member
You might also want to note that no matter who else posts anything non-superlative about the MSB DAC's Al or otherwise the same small group jumps in as if to defend and justify their purchases. Whether you understand it or not the rest of the forum doesn't need to buy or run out and listen to a "new generation" MSB DAC if they are happy with what they have or can't justify the "over the top" cost. Some of the exact same people calling the MSB the "next great thing" were doing the same thing about Berkley, DCS, Lampizator and a couple of other in just the last couple of years.
I am sorry, but you misunderstand. I am truly interested in how an MSB sounds, and I will be happy to audition one some day, preferably at home. I also had an exchange with a representative of MSB on another forum, in which I asked some questions about the technical concept of their DAC architecture and was satisfied about its elegance and efficiency in handling diverse format inputs, to the point that it raised my interest. I stated such at the time.
However, I am continually frustrated at the inability of the MSB proponents here and elsewhere to describe in meaningful ways what is so special about the new generation MSBs. Non-fatiguing, musical, analog sounding etc. are too vague descriptions to be informative. So is lack of 'digital edge': other DACs can be described that way too. Skanda has summarized above (post #42) the frustration with the current descriptions very well. When I then criticize the insufficient descriptions, I am referred to having to hear an MSB DAC to 'understand', and am attacked for only wanting to justify my own DAC (which I stated above, is not perfect either). Neither is helpful. Sure, you need to hear gear for yourself, but stating that obvious fact is no excuse for not efficiently trying to communicate.
I’ve taken a total of 3 Schiit Yggy DAC’s on trade. So, I’ve had some time to play with them. The last one was the latest version. It was fine sounding, reminded me of the Lampi Amber DAC. The Yggy won’t offend like a Mytek or some others out there in it’s price range. And it certainly isn’t hyper detailed like some DAC’s out there. And doesn’t sound analytical.
But IMO, the MSB Discrete is on another level in terms of realism, fleshiness and naturalness of vocals, tonality, bass, 3D, sound staging, etc. A good example was Karen Carpenters voice. The stock Discrete fleshed out her vocals so much more, sounded so much more natural and less processed, had more “weight” to the overall sound, among other things.
If I remember correctly, the stock power supply for the Discrete is about the size and weight of the entire Yggy DAC.
At the end of the day, in the price range - say under $4k, the Yggy is very good. If I was building a budget system, it would be a strong contender, as would the new Lumin D2. But even at $5k and beyond, you start to introduce some better DAC’s, like the Hugo TT2.
Ultimately, I really feel the MSB DAC’s sound like tape - my reference point.
But IMO, the MSB Discrete is on another level in terms of realism, fleshiness and naturalness of vocals, tonality, bass, 3D, sound staging, etc. A good example was Karen Carpenters voice. The stock Discrete fleshed out her vocals so much more, sounded so much more natural and less processed, had more “weight” to the overall sound, among other things.
If I remember correctly, the stock power supply for the Discrete is about the size and weight of the entire Yggy DAC.
At the end of the day, in the price range - say under $4k, the Yggy is very good. If I was building a budget system, it would be a strong contender, as would the new Lumin D2. But even at $5k and beyond, you start to introduce some better DAC’s, like the Hugo TT2.
Ultimately, I really feel the MSB DAC’s sound like tape - my reference point.
Now that is a much more helpful description! Thank you, Mike. Why hasn't someone come up with that much earlier? Now an MSB will be on my audition short list.
A question: at least in my system and configuration, with the Yggy being fed from high quality CD transport through high quality AES/EBU cable (see my signature), the DAC shows extreme timbral micro-detail, even though it is not 'digitally hyper-detailed', as you point out. This extreme detail resolution, which, as I hear it, makes it compete with top-level vinyl playback, makes it an ideal string quartet DAC, for example. It is just uncanny in its ability to resolve subtle detail of bowing friction and resonances of strings/instrument body (and I have recent live experiences to compare). How does the Discrete, or Premier, compare in that area?
Except that the Yggy could compete, also in resolution, with a dCS Vivaldi plus Upsampler (MSRP $ 55 K w/o cables) in a friend's system, where we both preferred the Yggdrasil. But perhaps the dCS gear is overpriced.
Were you able to try the Yggy with the vivaldi upsampler? If I remember correctly, MadFloyd on wbf had that set up on his mpro's for a bit. Also, I don't want to derail the thread so my question about the upsampler is more to understand if it's making a big diff with other dacs and can possibly be an interesting transport for the msb or if it only plays nice with the vivaldi dac.
Maybe it's totally unnecessary...I got a chance to talk with Mike recently about the roon renderer for msb - sounds like an amazing piece of tech and a great way to avoid the wire spaghetti that a good/great digital playback system can become
No, the Upsampler was used only on the Vivaldi.
I do it the old fashioned way, with simple yet great transport and single, high quality cable, feeding the DAC from it. I have heard servers in comparison with my transport and am not sold. I frankly wonder how many have heard the Yggy play as well as it does in my system.
An MSB would run with the same configuration.
Al, I have only used the MSB Ref transport via ProISL into the S2. Sounds amazing. Really amazing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Kingsrule
Member
- Joined
- May 11, 2014
- Messages
- 646
Why does everyone tiptoe around the fact that dCS just plain sounds bad?
still-one
Active member
Because it is a figment of your imagination. That dead horse you keep beating. Yada Yada Yada.
still-one
Active member
..........
