The Digital Promised Land-DSD

All I know is with my Mytek Stereo 192 DAC, if I have the same album in 24/192 and DSD, the DSD is clearly better. I haven't found one album yet where the PCM version sounded better than the DSD. Now if your DSD version was converted from the PCM file, all bets are off. There is still way too much digital hocus pocus going on unfortunately. LPs sourced from the master tape still sound better than either of the digital formats. So while it sounds nice to say that the quality of the recording and mastering is the most important ingredient, it certainly doesn't mean there are no differences between the PCM, DSD, and vinyl versions of the master tape. There certainly are differences at my house.
 
Mike said:
Nope. DSD downloads are your best bet. DSD Download | Acoustic Sounds
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CPP said:
I actually ripped some SCAD's using Mr Wicked's program on Audio Circle, his SCAD ripper program uses an old Sony PS3 that he has hacked. SACD ripping using a PS3 I got through about 10 SCAD's until my PS3 died. :(. So now I buy DSD like everyone else or just listen to my SACD's on my OPPO105..
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Thanks, Mike, Chris. Looks like I'll be buying some more DSD files in the future then.

One reason I like physical media is I have the option to sell it (but never do actually). Some prices on some old OOP SACDs are just insane!
 
My limited experience with DSD is mixed. Like others said, depends on the quality of the recording. I'm glad, however, that with the Lumin S1 I have the flexibility to play all of these formats and enjoy a high quality experience...:audiophile:
 
Mike said:
Mark/Mark - agree about the PCM to DSD. Bad, just bad. Reminds me of the days of VHS to Beta transfers. What's the point?

Are you guys familiar with what Ted Brady is doing over at Native DSD? https://www.nativedsd.com/



Some interesting reading: https://www.nativedsd.com/information/ted-brians-corner
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Good read.

I caught that even Meridian is going to do DSD.

From: Meridian Sooloos update | Meridian - Streaming | The Hitchhikers Guide To Meridian
...
upcoming Meridian Sooloos updates:

Format Roadmap
• Changes are under way to enable core support for 24-bit ALAC, DSD, and ‘8x’ sample-rates including DXD via MQA. As currently, the core mediates all formats to the various endpoints and no-one will be left behind.
• We are adding support for albums and sets with mixed-sample-rates.
• MQA. The current system is MQA-aware but during the next few months MQA decoding will be added.
• As currently, the Sooloos system is able to send the optimum signal to each end-point.

Hardware Roadmap
Our recently announced 818v3 and 808v6 fully support the formats listed above, including native decode of DSD (DoP) and MQA and, as you might expect, there are a number of other announcements coming.u

Exclusive content
Curated collections via TIDAL. One of the biggest problems for newcomers to serious music listening is building a collection that suits their taste. In the past this involved ripping CDs or laboriously accumulating downloads. With our special integration of TIDAL we can add simple-to-install curated music sets as a small download.

Core and Storage Hardware
Last year we released a plug-in for the QNAP NAS range that provides Sooloos-compatible storage. Beginning with the next release we add an option to run our Sooloos Core on QNAP. This means that more music lovers can join the Meridian Sooloos world without any compromise to sound quality. A QNAP, an iPad and a Meridian Sooloos end-point will get you started!

...

Control
You may have noticed rapid developments in the iPhone and iPad clients. The iPad app is undergoing further optimisation and, as usual, when that is released it’s a free upgrade.
...
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Two ways (of many to get involved with DSD)

  1. Record your own live music with a DSD Recorder (One of the best ways to get pure DSD.)
  3. Archive clean Vinyl to DSD:
  • Playback as RAW DSD. Which claims zero processing and filters for a transparent playback. (Surprise benefit: You don't have to flip sides and change discs! and it sounds the same!)
  • Convert to high bitrate PCM for digital processing and additional noise removal.
  • Convert to a lossless computer file format
  • Convert to DSD DISC for playback in other source devices
  • Convert to Blu-ray Disc for Playback in Blu-ray Players
  • Convert to DVD-A.. " " DVD-A Players
  • Convert to CD.. " " CD Players
 
Now that I have the Lumin S1, I looked at the DSD downloads at Acoustic Sounds, and every one that I might have bought, I already have as either a ripped CD or high-res PCM. The only one I really wanted to buy they did not have. I know Exile On Main Street was remastered for an SACD, and I wanted to compare it to the Blue Ray Audio version I have ripped, but they didn't have it.

As a side note, I thought Sony was supposed to have made their SACDs available as downloads.
 
CharlesL said:
I have a good mix of pcm and dsd files. Most of my dsd files have good SQ, possibly because the recording were good ones to start with. It seems to me that the most important factor is the recording and/or remastering. The formats contribute but not as significantly. If the original recording was good and the mastering done right, the music would sound great in both pcm and dsd.
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Charles.......Your comments parallel my experiences. A marginal recording and/or a crappy mix and/or poor mastering cannot be salvaged by a particular digital format. I have been wowed out of my seat by some CD's with incredible sound stage, impactful dynamics, rich bass, and a clarity that leaves me reeling in amazement. I have some SACD discs that do the same. On the other hand I have a number of duplicate CD's and SACD's where the CD outshines the SACD. Norah Jones - Come Away With Me is a classic example. The CD even sounds better than the 24/96 high-res download. How an artist or performance is recorded, the equipment used to make the recording, microphones, cabling, mix boards, DAC's or tape machines, and much more have a huge impact on what we hear once a recording is homogenized into our preferred format. Add to that the personal decisions made by the mixing and mastering engineers like EQ, compression, noise gates, echo, reverb, synthesized harmony, the software employed and more all play into the end results. As consumers of recordings in our choice of vinyl, CD, SACD, and high-res downloads of PCM or DSD, we are end users that stand after all that has preceded to get the product in our hands. I agree with Charles that the production of recordings represents the most important contribution to what we hear regardless of digital format.

In my humble opinion I have moments when I think the industry push to DSD by the equipment manufacturers and the music industry is a well rehearsed and executed business plan to make and sell more new gear in an already well saturated high-end market, and for the music companies to once again regurgitate their catalogs coded in the rising star format. Naturally this is all supported by lots of dollars for advertising, audio shows, and publications, all while the audio pundits keep the drums beating......D S D......D S D......D S D. The CEO's are cheering too, "Keep it rolling, audiophiles are still spending big bucks and we want our share."
 
Nice paper by Bruno Putzeys
Imho it shows the paradox of DSD nicely, a stunning dynamic range ( -150 dBFS !) and a sharp rising quantization noise right after 20 kHz drowning any musical signal above 20 kHz.
You won’t see that noise in the analog signal :)
 
Spoken like someone who has never heard dsd done right.Most have heard cpm-ized dad and dont really nnkow. As to the greedy ceo argument, most of the dad dads and download sites are tiny entities, even for the niche audio market.
 
Double-D said:
Charles.......Your comments parallel my experiences. A marginal recording and/or a crappy mix and/or poor mastering cannot be salvaged by a particular digital format. I have been wowed out of my seat by some CD's with incredible sound stage, impactful dynamics, rich bass, and a clarity that leaves me reeling in amazement. I have some SACD discs that do the same. On the other hand I have a number of duplicate CD's and SACD's where the CD outshines the SACD. Norah Jones - Come Away With Me is a classic example. The CD even sounds better than the 24/96 high-res download. How an artist or performance is recorded, the equipment used to make the recording, microphones, cabling, mix boards, DAC's or tape machines, and much more have a huge impact on what we hear once a recording is homogenized into our preferred format. Add to that the personal decisions made by the mixing and mastering engineers like EQ, compression, noise gates, echo, reverb, synthesized harmony, the software employed and more all play into the end results. As consumers of recordings in our choice of vinyl, CD, SACD, and high-res downloads of PCM or DSD, we are end users that stand after all that has preceded to get the product in our hands. I agree with Charles that the production of recordings represents the most important contribution to what we hear regardless of digital format.

In my humble opinion I have moments when I think the industry push to DSD by the equipment manufacturers and the music industry is a well rehearsed and executed business plan to make and sell more new gear in an already well saturated high-end market, and for the music companies to once again regurgitate their catalogs coded in the rising star format. Naturally this is all supported by lots of dollars for advertising, audio shows, and publications, all while the audio pundits keep the drums beating......D S D......D S D......D S D. The CEO's are cheering too, "Keep it rolling, audiophiles are still spending big bucks and we want our share."
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Dan-I think you are giving the music companies and the high-end manufacturers way too much credit. Like all things in audio, there is never consensus among all the players. There are certainly manufacturers who don't believe in DSD and believe in PCM and now we have yet another version of digital that is lossy and yet claims to be better sounding than hi-rez (look at Meridian for instance). People who are involved with PCM and don't like DSD don't all agree on what the best sounding version of PCM is. If there was so much consensus among OEMs and the music business, how come they can't even adopt a common connector/cable type for carrying digital signals never mind a common digital format that all would agree is superior? We have the audio equivalent of the tower of Babel now when it comes to digital with hardly anyone agreeing on very much (no different than the rest of high end audio mind you).

And all of this is taking place unbeknownst to John Q. Public who has no idea about digital formats. They understand CDs, and they understand iTunes for downloads. Most of them wouldn't know anything about the different digital formats and would have no idea if you asked them the difference between a CD and a 24/192 let alone higher multiples of the sampling frequency. And my point to all of this is that no one has communicated effectively to the general public that we have something better sounding than RBCD and it's available for purchase. So where is this well rehearsed and executed business plan? IMO, it doesn't exist. And maybe because of the speed at which digital technology is changing, it never will. Will we ever see a mass well publicized roll out of a new format adopted by all the OEMs and record labels and introduced to the public like we last saw with the CD format? Time will tell, but I wouldn't sit on a picket fence waiting for it to happen.
 
Neil Young and Pono are pushing for 24/192 PCM. This seems to be the most visible advertisement for hi-res to the music buying public since Sony's (typically) screwed up introduction of SACD.
 
I'll let you guys decide this argument. I agree it is the year of the DSD but I think I am going to wait until next year. If it is to be DSD, what will be the audiophiles baseline? DSD512?
 
rbbert said:
Neil Young and Pono are pushing for 24/192 PCM. This seems to be the most visible advertisement for hi-res to the music buying public since Sony's (typically) screwed up introduction of SACD.
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Neil Young and Pono are one more example of trying to bring awareness to the general public of a better sounding digital format. How effective has it been? How many of your coworkers if asked would say they have heard of Pono and could explain what it means? My guess is you would be met with a bunch of blank stares if you asked the question. Most people who did adopt the CD format when introduced and quickly kicked their LPs to the curb or dropped them off at the local Goodwill store would be clueless if you asked them what the bit depth and sampling frequency of CDs are. Seriously. Since the advent of the CD and the successful roll out of the hardware and software in the 1980s, digital has shot itself in the foot ever since and no new digital format has been successfully brought to market and widely adopted by the public. SACD and DVDA didn't even register a blip on the radar screen to the public. This 'format war' didn't come close to the VHS/Beta Max slug out that the public did participate in until VHS dealt the fatal blow to Sony. 'Everybody' had a VHS machine and now they have been discarded and now 'everybody' has a DVD player. Those represent successful roll outs of new formats and new products to play them back on.
 
Steve said:
I'll let you guys decide this argument. I agree it is the year of the DSD but I think I am going to wait until next year. If it is to be DSD, what will be the audiophiles baseline? DSD512?
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Steve-I don't think it will ever be decided and that is my point. DSD and high rez PCM will remain niche products to the audiophile market that the general public will remain blissfully ignorant of. The general public has no idea these products even exist and that we are arguing over them. Hell, the general public has no idea that LPs are still being made today and that people like us are arguing over digital and analog. We are starting to see DSD 64 build up some steam in terms of material available for download. DSD 128-not so much.
 
What's DSD permeance in the amongst music professionals?

Bob Ludwig at Gateway Mastering supports DSD. He's a big player. Pop/Rock-which I am guessing is most records.

It's got to start there, not cart before the horse of designing a DAC. More DSD Music should lead to greater understanding and acceptance amongst the teen-age daughters of the world. :D
 
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