I didn’t intend to be dismissive. Everyone likes something different and while I have not chosen to go to class de route, I have heard class D amplifiers that I thought were very pleasing.
Switched to Class D or get left behind?
- Thread starter nc42acc
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I should also say that I never question what someone says they heard or didn’t hear because how would I know? Sometimes the more interesting question is why we perceive what we perceive. I changed out a couple of cables not long ago and I certainly perceived an improvement. If someone asked me if that could be attributable at least in part to the placebo effect my honest answer would have to be I don’t have any idea. I know I am subject to the same sort of implicit bias that pertains to the human race and short of an objective measurement or a blind test I can only say what I perceived, not why.
Unlike the objectivist camp, I’m OK with that because to me it’s listening to music and it’s fun. I don’t make a science project out of it. But everyone finds their enjoyment in their own way.
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
It's all subjective.
Except for objective categories like amplifier class
Then I have to know what I'm listening to. Cuz you know, it's all subjective ;-)
Mr Peabody
Well-known member
I was always on a budget I was hoping not to hear a difference in order not to spend money, LOL. I figure if I hear enough difference to get me to spend money it must be real. I also take the piece out and ask if I can be happy without it.
If you enjoy Class D that's fine. You are in good company. I'm just tired of the over marketing and attitude of some regarding the topology.
garylkoh
Active member
That's the key - to have someone lead you. The first time I sat with Bernie Grundman mastering an album, he poked buttons and pushed sliders and things got better and better. I had thought that I was a good listener, having horned my craft over hundreds and thousands of hours designing loudspeakers.
But until then, I hadn't realized how much of what I heard can be quantified and qualified. I struggled to hear very change that Bernie made. And when he noticed the pained expression on my face, on the next track, he explained every change, and let me A/B every change that he made. Most of the changes I had to strain to hear the difference. Over a few mastering sessions, I had become a very much better listener.
Scientists have shown that:
1. Temporal acuity of human hearing beats Fourier uncertainty principle:
2. Threshold of hearing is close to quantum noise and uncertainty principle (did I hear that or didn't I ???)
So, I ask myself everyday - what are the things I can hear but still have difficulty quantifying and don't even know what to measure, set alone how to measure it.
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
Hi Gary,
If you claim you can outrun Usain Bolt, you don't need to measure anything, just demonstrate it on a track.
If you claim you can "hear" class D vs A, AB etc, you don't have to measure a thing, just demonstrate it. How that's done, is by not using your eyes, volume, priori knowledge etc, but rather "trust your ears, just listen". Which, unbeknown to audiophiles, by definition, is a controlled blind listening test.
Now if you must see, know, believe, read, be lead, mismatch volumes etc to "hear" something, well, here we are ;-).
In the end, when, not if, audiophiles fail to hear any difference between D and A/AB (SS not tubes), there will still be the visible, knowledge etc factor that will cause psychogenic drama, ergo...buy whatever pleases one most, in fully sighted and uncontrolled "listening". Pretty simple concept really.
Randy Myers
Well-known member
I 100% believe that truly enjoying an audiophile system and being able to hear subtle differences is a learned trait. Anyone can hear the difference when they listen to a "good system" for the first time. However, understanding what they are hearing and comparing systems takes time and practice. It also comes down to both individual preferences and the importance of the subtleties to that person. Some people, such as my wife could care less about the differences. She enjoys music, but certainly not to just sit down and listen. She actually has a hard time understanding when I do go into the music room and just listen to music.
This is why I say to really understand, perceive, and care about the differences and enjoy the differences is something that takes time to develop. I always loved listening to good music, but understanding what I preferred and perceiving these differences is something that took decades to develop.
Many times, I listen to music because I like the artist. For example, I really love Amy Lee's voice, and I have to get anything new Evanescence comes out with (which is almost always years waiting). I would not say their albums are "audiophile" recordings, but I enjoy the music. Other times I want to sit and listen to the highest quality in my collection. It all depends on mood I suppose.
I have never been a person who likes A/B comparisons, especially with neophytes. Comparisons are not easy under the best circumstances, and very hard under most A/B comparison sessions. Familiarity with the music/track is essential. Enjoying the particular track is also important. Many other variables come into play. For example, I have had my system in a small room for quite some time now. Doing a comparison in a larger room would not be conducive to me hearing differences. Listening with a room full of people would make it damn near impossible.
The type of speakers being used. For example, if the comparison was done using horn speakers, I would probably find the entire process irritating. But others in the group might find that listening to a British made speaker was not up their ally. They want the dynamics and thump of large woofers and horns, purely as an example. I might enjoy one thing over another, but comparing different type of amplifiers, or cables, or many other things, would be hard in these situations.
This is why I say I have heard Class D amplifiers sound very good. However, every Class D I have actually owned and listened to in my environment, with my music, my DAC, my other gear, have sounded rather sterile. What I describe as lacking the warm and fuzzy feeling to me. They were good, however not inviting long term, like something I look forward to sitting down and doing serious listening, sort of like when I listen to my Woo headphone amp with top notch NOS tubes and my Abyss headphones. Or, listening a superb British speaker with a Class A amplifier (First Watt, or the tubed Audio Mirror for example), or for long term satisfaction such as McIntosh, MBL, Job (all of which I enjoyed the most in my system). A very inviting listening session is how I describe it. This is a very difficult A/B comparison under the best of circumstances.
This is why I say to really understand, perceive, and care about the differences and enjoy the differences is something that takes time to develop. I always loved listening to good music, but understanding what I preferred and perceiving these differences is something that took decades to develop.
Many times, I listen to music because I like the artist. For example, I really love Amy Lee's voice, and I have to get anything new Evanescence comes out with (which is almost always years waiting). I would not say their albums are "audiophile" recordings, but I enjoy the music. Other times I want to sit and listen to the highest quality in my collection. It all depends on mood I suppose.
I have never been a person who likes A/B comparisons, especially with neophytes. Comparisons are not easy under the best circumstances, and very hard under most A/B comparison sessions. Familiarity with the music/track is essential. Enjoying the particular track is also important. Many other variables come into play. For example, I have had my system in a small room for quite some time now. Doing a comparison in a larger room would not be conducive to me hearing differences. Listening with a room full of people would make it damn near impossible.
The type of speakers being used. For example, if the comparison was done using horn speakers, I would probably find the entire process irritating. But others in the group might find that listening to a British made speaker was not up their ally. They want the dynamics and thump of large woofers and horns, purely as an example. I might enjoy one thing over another, but comparing different type of amplifiers, or cables, or many other things, would be hard in these situations.
This is why I say I have heard Class D amplifiers sound very good. However, every Class D I have actually owned and listened to in my environment, with my music, my DAC, my other gear, have sounded rather sterile. What I describe as lacking the warm and fuzzy feeling to me. They were good, however not inviting long term, like something I look forward to sitting down and doing serious listening, sort of like when I listen to my Woo headphone amp with top notch NOS tubes and my Abyss headphones. Or, listening a superb British speaker with a Class A amplifier (First Watt, or the tubed Audio Mirror for example), or for long term satisfaction such as McIntosh, MBL, Job (all of which I enjoyed the most in my system). A very inviting listening session is how I describe it. This is a very difficult A/B comparison under the best of circumstances.
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AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
Seems even Harbeth are among the heretics now and can't see-know, excuse me, "hear" the dry sterility in their own products like audiophiles can.
https://twitteringmachines.com/review-harbeth-nle-1-professional-monitor-loudspeakers/
Actives simplify things and do cut down on the number of components and cabling etc needed, but that could create OCD problems in of itself, so...YMMV.
cheers,
AJ
Randy Myers
Well-known member
Really not sure what the heck your point is AJ. It is kind of funny that the article you link is on their outlier product to fit a particular niche. The latest "craze" of self-contained speakers/monitors. Not their standard lineup product for normal 2-channel listing. But, whatever, they do have Harbeth name on them and they come from Alan Shaw. I like British speakers natural inviting sound, and I differ from Mr. Shaw (and have debated him as such) in that he firmly falls into the measurement category. I have never heard either of the two self-contained powered speakers in their lineup. Therefore, I reserve all judgements thereof.Seems even Harbeth are among the heretics now and can't see-know, excuse me, "hear" the dry sterility in their own products like audiophiles can.
https://twitteringmachines.com/review-harbeth-nle-1-professional-monitor-loudspeakers/
Actives simplify things and do cut down on the number of components and cabling etc needed, but that could create OCD problems in of itself, so...YMMV.
cheers,
AJ
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
That Alan Shaw may have joined the stone deaf? Seems his stellar hearing that produced all those wonderful warm n cozy Brit sound Harbeths that audiophiles swoon over, suddenly failed when he put Class D amps in these. How else would one explain him not hearing the sterility, glare and whatnot at the sight...excuse me, sound of Class D??
That "latest craze" may be older than you suspect https://www.stereophile.com/content...peaker-studio-monitor-1092a-powered-subwoofer the 1031A intro's around 1991. At least 35yrs latest I guess ;-).
Strangely they list them as "pair" https://harbeth.co.uk/nle-1/
Give them a spin if you get a chance, you will of course know priori that they are Class D, but alas....
Must confess I haven't been keeping up, remember you had KEF, then Maggies (or vice versa?), just looked at your list and now see you're...Harbeth. Hah ;-).
cheers,
AJ
Randy Myers
Well-known member
Was always KEF fan back in the old days (after I found the 104aB and never turned back). Then when I updated years ago now it was KEF, both small and larger. I tried Magnapans and thought they were a great speaker but hard to fit comfortably in my small rooms. Back to KEF. Even though they were good, I felt that I would have to go above my budget to get their made in England models. Read a lot about Harbeth and do believe their hand made in England is carrying on the British sound torch. I do indeed like the models I have tried and/or heard.
I used to sell M&K Sat/Sub system back in the day. And then Bose later on. The subs were powered but still used a standard configuration amplifier.
When I stated 2-channel I was referring to 2 speakers (with or without sub) and standard amplifier design (stereo listening). Not just speakers coming in a pair. But you already knew that but had a sarcastic moment
.
Are not almost all self-powered speakers Class D? The advantages of Class D do indeed fit the amp built in speaker design. I assume there are some exotic models with Class A or A/B amplifiers, but I am not familiar with them.
And yes, like many technologies such as self-powered speakers do go back a way. But they were never in demand, a craze if you will, until the last few years.
I used to sell M&K Sat/Sub system back in the day. And then Bose later on. The subs were powered but still used a standard configuration amplifier.
When I stated 2-channel I was referring to 2 speakers (with or without sub) and standard amplifier design (stereo listening). Not just speakers coming in a pair. But you already knew that but had a sarcastic moment
.Are not almost all self-powered speakers Class D? The advantages of Class D do indeed fit the amp built in speaker design. I assume there are some exotic models with Class A or A/B amplifiers, but I am not familiar with them.
And yes, like many technologies such as self-powered speakers do go back a way. But they were never in demand, a craze if you will, until the last few years.
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Mr Peabody
Well-known member
Was always KEF fan back in the old days (after I found the 104aB and never turned back). Then when I updated years ago now it was KEF, both small and larger. I tried Magnapans and thought they were a great speaker but hard to fit comfortably in my small rooms. Back to KEF. Even though they were good, I felt that I would have to go above my budget to get their made in England models. Read a lot about Harbeth and do believe their hand made in England is carrying on the British sound torch. I do indeed like the models I have tried and/or heard.
I used to sell M&K Sat/Sub system back in the day. And then Bose later on. The subs were powered but still used a standard configuration amplifier.
When I stated 2-channel I was referring to 2 speakers (with or without sub) and standard amplifier design (stereo listening). Not just speakers coming in a pair. But you already knew that but had a sarcastic moment
Are not almost all self-powered speakers Class D? The advantages of Class D do indeed fit the amp built in speaker design. I assume there are some exotic models with Class A or A/B amplifiers, but I am not familiar with them.
And yes, like many technologies such as self-powered speakers do go back a way. But they were never in demand, a craze if you will, until the last few years.
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I haven't fact checked it I was told by a VS owner his used Class A/B for the bass.
garylkoh
Active member
Even when used just in the bass, the difference is audible. We modified the Hypex UcD modules for bass duties. Didn't measure any difference, but even just walking into the room, I could hear if my tech had forgotten to put in the mod.
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
Most but a few like active version of your old KEFs use AB
Lower heat for sure. No question the old Class D had all sorts of HF filtering and line noise issues. That's what gained them a bad rap. The newer SOTA designs by folks like Bruno Putzeys ended all that, the HF and noise are indistinguishable from good A/AB. Hence absolute SOTA flagship models from MBL, YG, Meridian, Kii, D&D etc all use D. Flagships from Klipsch, B&W etc are active but not sure what amps are used.
Nice.
You going between KEF/Maggie/Harbeth is exactly why I got off the sidelines years ago with my variable directivity designs. Why not have it all? ;-)
cheers
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
Gary I'm a bit skeptical. However if you bring your speakers down to the FL Audio Expo 27 you can show me yourself