Switched to Class D or get left behind?

[Michaels HiFi]

I have heard the Atma-Sphere class D monos at a friend's house and in my system. My friend also owns a pair of his tube monos that sell for over $20k. It is not even close, the tube amps sound so much better. He sold the class d amps and kept the tube amps. I also much preferred my Pass X250 over the Class d amps. I am not saying that the D amps were bad, its just that the other amps are better.

You are wasting your time trying to talk to him about Class D. He thinks his NAD Class D is the savior of the world, we who use SET's are killing the world environment and are irresponsible for using tubes, and refuses to accept other people like different sound.

"
"Hear Here said:
Ralph has seen the light and states his main reason for going down the Class D route is sound quality. I wonder if he also recognises that price is so much lower than his very costly OTL valve amps that he is unlikely to stay in business if he offers only these costly monsters!"

Let's have some honestly in this thread: In talking with other ultra high end manufacturers who are now slowly moving from tube to hybrid and other tech, they will openly admit it has NOTHING to do with admitting Class D is 'better' and everything to do (as they openly admit) with the difficulty in a constant supply of the tubes they need.

 

[Bones13]

As with most of our beloved hobby, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, both visually and audibly. And we are all entitled to our own likes and dislikes.

I like a little warmth in my sound, having musical tastes dating to the 60s and 70s, growing up listening to a 50s McIntosh system. But not too much. But the gear that I have listened to that was described as "precise", etc, was always too "thin" and "dry" for my liking.

My happy medium is 95db speakers, with good digital and analog front, using a good tube pre and the Atma-Sphere Class D mono blocks. I also like how the mono blocks are small, easy to move, and don't take an hour to warm up and sound "the best". Now that I live in Seattle, Class A heat is not an issue.

The bigger Atma-Sphere OTL amps just have too many tubes for my liking. As @Michaels HiFi stated above, quality tubes will become more difficult to source over time, and the price is rising.

 

[RepublicOfTexas69]

As with most of our beloved hobby, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, both visually and audibly. And we are all entitled to our own likes and dislikes.

I like a little warmth in my sound, having musical tastes dating to the 60s and 70s, growing up listening to a 50s McIntosh system. But not too much. But the gear that I have listened to that was described as "precise", etc, was always too "thin" and "dry" for my liking.

My happy medium is 95db speakers, with good digital and analog front, using a good tube pre and the Atma-Sphere Class D mono blocks. I also like how the mono blocks are small, easy to move, and don't take an hour to warm up and sound "the best". Now that I live in Seattle, Class A heat is not an issue.

The bigger Atma-Sphere OTL amps just have too many tubes for my liking. As @Michaels HiFi stated above, quality tubes will become more difficult to source over time, and the price is rising.

Why I went hybrid with the Canor AI 2.10, I also have my Qualiton X200 I fire up for the 60 days of winter we get in TX

 

[2FarGone]

Maybe it’s just the musings of an old guy, but I find myself wondering if there really is such a thing as a “best” anything in audio, or if everything is just a matter of preference. Extended periods of focused attention are long known to create new neural pathways in the brain. That’s what audio freaks do, but our listening habits are as varied as we are. We listen to different music on different systems in different acoustic environments, so the development of those neural pathways is unique to the individual. We may hear via the same mechanisms, but we can’t help but process what we hear differently. That being the case, it’s unsurprising that no consensus exists in this hobby beyond a dead short is a bad thing. We all have different conceptions of what a “perfect” system should sound like.

Viva les differences.

 

[Kramer64]

Maybe it’s just the musings of an old guy, but I find myself wondering if there really is such a thing as a “best” anything in audio, or if everything is just a matter of preference. Extended periods of focused attention are long known to create new neural pathways in the brain. That’s what audio freaks do, but our listening habits are as varied as we are. We listen to different music on different systems in different acoustic environments, so the development of those neural pathways is unique to the individual. We may hear via the same mechanisms, but we can’t help but process what we hear differently. That being the case, it’s unsurprising that no consensus exists in this hobby beyond a dead short is a bad thing. We all have different conceptions of what a “perfect” system should sound like.

Viva les differences.

Very well said. Two “Audiophiles” arguing over what sounds better, whether it’s amplifier class, tubes versus solid state, whatever, is generally just dancing on a conceptual pinhead. When someone says this sounds “better” and do not add the qualifier “to my ears” I’m pretty skeptical because the only certainty is how it sounds to you and if someone else says it sounds different to them, you have no compelling way to dispute that.

Some people like the sound of death metal. I know that death metal is an abomination against the human race, but I can’t prove it.

Maybe it’s just the musings of an old guy, but I find myself wondering if there really is such a thing as a “best” anything in audio, or if everything is just a matter of preference. Extended periods of focused attention are long known to create new neural pathways in the brain. That’s what audio freaks do, but our listening habits are as varied as we are. We listen to different music on different systems in different acoustic environments, so the development of those neural pathways is unique to the individual. We may hear via the same mechanisms, but we can’t help but process what we hear differently. That being the case, it’s unsurprising that no consensus exists in this hobby beyond a dead short is a bad thing. We all have different conceptions of what a “perfect” system should sound like.

Viva les differences.

Very well said. Audiophiles debating what sounds better, whether it’s amplifiers, tubes versus solid state, whatever, is generally just dancing on a conceptual pinhead. It might be interesting, but there is no objectively correct conclusion. When I hear someone say this sounds “better“ without adding the qualifier “to my ears“ I’m skeptical. Stating a subjective preference as an objective truth is a logical fallacy. I can only say with certainty what sounds best to me. I cannot possibly know how it sounds to you.

Iknow, for example, that death metal is an abomination against the human race. I can’t prove it though.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

Maybe it’s just the musings of an old guy, but I find myself wondering if there really is such a thing as a “best” anything in audio, or if everything is just a matter of preference. Extended periods of focused attention are long known to create new neural pathways in the brain. That’s what audio freaks do, but our listening habits are as varied as we are. We listen to different music on different systems in different acoustic environments, so the development of those neural pathways is unique to the individual. We may hear via the same mechanisms, but we can’t help but process what we hear differently. That being the case, it’s unsurprising that no consensus exists in this hobby beyond a dead short is a bad thing. We all have different conceptions of what a “perfect” system should sound like.

Viva les differences.

I agree and well said.

I personally don't believe there is the best of anything nor do I need the best. I simply want to enjoy the journey.

Maybe that's why the ASR people I view as such nitwits: they want to argue about meaningless numbers and tell us how we're wrong rather than just letting us listen to the music and enjoy what we prefer.

 

[RepublicOfTexas69]

I agree and well said.

I personally don't believe there is the best of anything nor do I need the best. I simply want to enjoy the journey.

Maybe that's why the ASR people I view as such nitwits: they want to argue about meaningless numbers and tell us how we're wrong rather than just letting us listen to the music and enjoy what we prefer.

Calling people names because they have a differing opinion or beliefs achieves what?
More discord. We all have differing opinions and tastes.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

Calling people names because they have a differing opinion or beliefs achieves what?
More discord. We all have differing opinions and tastes.

Agreed.

In this instance I'm referencing the fact that they are generally by and large an extremely hostile and uneducated crowd that act like a cult and don't care to have a true two way conversation.

Have you ever watched someone on the ASR forum try to have a debate with them and watch what happens? Many times Amir will simply delete and ban them for having a differing opinion.

Have you ever tried to explain to them it's not "1's and 0's" in digital audio? Or how you can hear a difference in cables?

It's impossible to converse with any of them as they can't accept people have a different opinion.

I feel comfortable referring to that behavior by them as that of a nitwit.

 

[garylkoh]

Telling someone that their perception of what they feel and hear is wrong is basically gaslighting. It is psychological abuse to tell me that what I feel I hear is invalid because "the numbers say so". Unfortunately, there is a lot of this emotional abuse going on in the audiophile online network.

 

[RepublicOfTexas69]

Agreed.

In this instance I'm referencing the fact that they are generally by and large an extremely hostile and uneducated crowd that act like a cult and don't care to have a true two way conversation.

Have you ever watched someone on the ASR forum try to have a debate with them and watch what happens? Many times Amir will simply delete and ban them for having a differing opinion. It's impossible to converse with any of them as they can't accept people have a different opinion.

I feel comfortable referring to that behavior by them as that of a nitwit.

I get it, still I generally prefer to stay away from folks that only surround themselves with like minded people. I avoid the ASR crowd and do not tolerate shills or trolls. Got me booted from a couple of forums but heck it is what it is and I learned to bite my keyboard now....

 

[Kramer64]

Calling people names because they have a differing opinion or beliefs achieves what?
More discord. We all have differing opinions and tastes.

I agree that some of the folks on ASR are intolerant of any difference of opinion and sometimes quite rude, no doubt about it. I have to say though, that from what I've seen, Amir himself is generally civil and professional in his interactions, even when personally attacked in pretty rough terms. I certainly don't follow him enough to say that is universally true, but there is another forum on which he sometimes posts and he gets savaged every time in very personal terms. He usually sticks to his points which he makes forcefully-doesn't give an inch-but keeps it to the topic. I can appreciate that while disagreeing with the great majority of what he says and that makes for a worthwhile discussion.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

I get it, still I generally prefer to stay away from folks that only surround themselves with like minded people. I avoid the ASR crowd and do not tolerate shills or trolls. Got me booted from a couple of forums but heck it is what it is and I learned to bite my keyboard now....

Totally fair.

 

[Mechnutt]

Telling someone that their perception of what they feel and hear is wrong is basically gaslighting. It is psychological abuse to tell me that what I feel I hear is invalid because "the numbers say so". Unfortunately, there is a lot of this emotional abuse going on in the audiophile online network.

I have been in a discussion on the SHF about amps sounding different and the nonsense some people there are spouting about its all in my head is just crazy. They ignore the fact that my Pass X250 amp had thunderous bass and the Parasound A21s bass does not come close. I pointed out that the pass has 200,000uf of capacitance vs 88,000uf. That measurement alone supports my point. Every amp that I have owned sounded different. I brought up if they all sound the same, why not just buy a cheap $200 Chinese chip amp.

I owned a Marantz KI Ruby Integrated and claimed it is a very slow amp with deep slow bass and a lot of bloom but with a tonally rich and deep midrange. One guy stated that measurements don't support that. What FKG BS! Ken Ishiwata voiced the Ruby to sound this way.

 

[Hear Here]

Agreed.

In this instance I'm referencing the fact that they are generally by and large an extremely hostile and uneducated crowd that act like a cult and don't care to have a true two way conversation.

Have you ever watched someone on the ASR forum try to have a debate with them and watch what happens? Many times Amir will simply delete and ban them for having a differing opinion.

Have you ever tried to explain to them it's not "1's and 0's" in digital audio? Or how you can hear a difference in cables?

It's impossible to converse with any of them as they can't accept people have a different opinion.

I feel comfortable referring to that behavior by them as that of a nitwit.

Sadly some of those ASR guys put their noses in here too - you know who you are!

Whenever presented with an experience-based and logically explained point of view, they will never respond with an experience-based or logically explained reply. They will just say "Prove it" and point towards some student's degree paper that "proves" that it's not music that counts but what their microphones and PCs say that really matters.

 

[Feanor]

I agree that some of the folks on ASR are intolerant of any difference of opinion and sometimes quite rude, no doubt about it. I have to say though, that from what I've seen, Amir himself is generally civil and professional in his interactions, even when personally attacked in pretty rough terms. I certainly don't follow him enough to say that is universally true, but there is another forum on which he sometimes posts and he gets savaged every time in very personal terms. He usually sticks to his points which he makes forcefully-doesn't give an inch-but keeps it to the topic. I can appreciate that while disagreeing with the great majority of what he says and that makes for a worthwhile discussion.

YES, it's true that there are intolerant folks at ASR as I can attest from personal experience. There are adamant "All amps sound the same" guy who relentless condemn & mock anyone who offers a personal impression. Anything that isn't backed up by measurements and/or rigorous blind testing is "subjective" and is both irrelevant & contemptible to them.

Amir himself is very civil and relatively tolerant guy, but he is an objectivist who believes (a) that anything the measures well must sound good, and (b) that most equipment's distortion is far below any hearing threshold and therefore audibly indistinguishable from similar.

My personal criticism of Amir is that he maintains that SINAD, (THD+noise), is a surrogate for ALL measurement parameters. This isn't true and exposes Amir to dismissive criticism that's worse than he deserves because, afterall, he does provide comprehensive measurements, not just SINAD. Furthermore, at least for speakers and headphones, he offers capsule subjective impressions.

Another "objectivist" reviewer I respect is Erin's Audio Corner. Erin reviews mainly speakers providing BOTH comprehensive measurement AND extensive personal impressions.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

Amir himself is very civil and relatively tolerant guy,

His savage attack on Danny from GSR recently, Amir's legendary battles on other forums before he started his own, and the atmosphere he has created on the ASR forum (and how he often deletes and bans those who disagree with him) shows the truth to be something different.

 

[Hear Here]

His savage attack on Danny from GSR recently, Amir's legendary battles on other forums before he started his own, and the atmosphere he has created on the ASR forum (and how he often deletes and bans those who disagree with him) shows the truth to be something different.

I agree, and the toxic views expressed so often on ASR do nothing to encourage audio listening. However you can't deny that ASR forum gets more postings than all the other forums combined! Crazy, but perhaps all members there don't actually listen to music, but spend their time reading others' posts and replying to every one they don't agree with. They really are a crazy bunch that are perhaps best left to their own mutterings. Unfortunately, there are a few who venture here, but I don't think the rest of us take their rantings and denials seriously!

 

[Kramer64]

His savage attack on Danny from GSR recently, Amir's legendary battles on other forums before he started his own, and the atmosphere he has created on the ASR forum (and how he often deletes and bans those who disagree with him) shows the truth to be something different.

My take on it is a bit different, but we are free to disagree. First, I have no idea whether Amir or Danny are right in their arguments. Personally, I wouldn't buy speakers that I felt needed what Danny does and if I was that dissatisfied I would get new speakers. That's just me and if Danny's customers are happy with his work, as many seem to be, that's great.

Obviously, Danny and Amir have had a pointed exchange, but I didn't see any savage attack. Amir, from what I saw, didn't label Danny as stupid or a nitwit or a criminal. He did attack the benefits of the work Danny is selling for those speakers in a substantive way. Danny responded. They both made substantive points and everyone can decide who makes sense to them. To me, attacking someone personally is different and usually just demonstrates that the attacker doesn't have much of value to say on the topic at hand or is stinging from losing the debate on the merits.

Again, I have a fundamentally different view of audio than Amir, but from what I've seen, he generally presents his (flawed to my mind) views without getting in the gutter. Which I appreciate. I don't have to despise Amir to disagree with him. I'm not big on banning people from forums or deleting comments, but if you own the forum you have every right to run it as you please and the remedy for those who disagree is to avoid that forum.

I don't watch every Amir video or spend much time on ASR where there certainly are lots of toxic comments, so I might have missed something.

 

[2FarGone]

YES, it's true that there are intolerant folks at ASR as I can attest from personal experience. There are adamant "All amps sound the same" guy who relentless condemn & mock anyone who offers a personal impression. Anything that isn't backed up by measurements and/or rigorous blind testing is "subjective" and is both irrelevant & contemptible to them.

…which effectively explains why they themselves are contemptuously dismissed by anyone with real world experience in building a high quality audio system.

Frankly, it mystifies me that anyone genuinely interested in building a great system would bother going to that website. I checked it out years ago, and quickly determined that it would be of no use to me in getting to where I wanted to be. The image of a cosmologist trying to discuss astrophysics with a card-carrying member of the Flat Earth Society came to mind. If you’ve already made up your mind as to the nature of the universe, there’s really nothing left to discuss.

A quote from George Bernard Shaw comes to mind: “I learned long ago not to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.” Those who enjoy that kind of online interaction are welcome to it.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

I agree, and the toxic views expressed so often on ASR do nothing to encourage audio listening. However you can't deny that ASR forum gets more postings than all the other forums combined! Crazy, but perhaps all members there don't actually listen to music, but spend their time reading others' posts and replying to every one they don't agree with. They really are a crazy bunch that are perhaps best left to their own mutterings. Unfortunately, there are a few who venture here, but I don't think the rest of us take their rantings and denials seriously!

Agreed.

I do think it is ultimately two things that drives them:

1) laziness: they don't want to have to do the work to figure out what is "good" and they are people who fundamentally like to be told what to think;

2) Jealousy: I do think a large part of it is they are jealous (as is a very large part of the people in this hobby) and claiming their $200 Eversolo measure as good or better than Aries Cerat makes them feel superior to those with more expensive gear.

The funny thing is my timex keeps more accurate time than a Rolex. Having said that I still wish I could afford a Rolex and I'm not jealous of those who have one....or 10.