Switched to Class D or get left behind?

[Hear Here]

pretty bold statement, which I will "probably" predict is wrong.

You know, I have heard your speakers, never been enamored with them UNTIL Mike's last FL show. I believe they were being shown with VAC electronics and WADAX StudioPlayer. We went in "reluctantly" and to me this room was one of the two best at the show, by far the best I have ever heard them. I looked at my friend and said, I could not just "easily" live with them but if I was in the market, this "system" would be on my list.

Interesting observation regarding Avantgarde speakers (or probably any good horn system) at hi-fi shows. I've taken my own speakers to shows in the past to help Art Audio demonstrate their great amps.

There is a fundamental problem with horns in demo rooms where a large number of listeners need to be impressed. A well-set up domestic AG system requires very accurate setting up, especially toe-in. This results in spectacular sound in a small sweet spot. This set up is inappropriate at shows so the likelihood is that the speakers will be compromised by facing them far more forward-facing than is ideal at home. This results in "good" sound throughout the room, but not spectacular for any listener.

I'm sure Mike will agree with is summary of why AG speakers often fall a little short of their potential at shows and that his own expertly set up system (with Jim Smith’s help) was far better sounding than he could achieve at an audio show.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

I'm sure Mike will agree with is summary of why AG speakers often fall a little short of their potential at shows and that his own expertly set up system (with Jim Smith’s help) was far better sounding than he could achieve at an audio show.

Their latest speakers fall far short - as many I've spoke with agree - because they are now tied to Class D amps. AG has seriously lost their way in pricing and now the sound with the built in Class D amps.

Many speakers require serious amounts of set up - like the Tobians - yet they manage to sound great at shows.

 

[Randy Myers]

I have owned a few pieces of Benchmark. I also know a few people who owned the amp, and have actual sold them.

What I know is that Benchmark I have owned or heard sounded good, however they all sound very sterile. They just seem to lack that musical magic in my opinion.

The analogy that one member wrote struke a cord with me. Many amps make me want to turn them up, Benchmark made me want to turn the music down.

 

[W9TR]

Anyone tried the new purifi amps, they bench tested very well one of the best for Class D ..!

Buckeye Purifi Eigentakt 1ET9040BA monoblock power amplifier New Measurements | Stereophile.com

Follow-Up: New Measurements, from June 2025 When Kalman Rubinson reviewed this affordably priced amplifier in the January 2025 issue, he was impressed by what he heard. "Sonically, the Buckeye 1ET9040BA monoblocks are superb," he concluded, adding that "to their credit, they are transparent...

www.stereophile.com

I have a Purifi Eigentakt (latest generation) Buckeye amp in my system now. I’m comparing it to a McIntosh MC 602 600 wpc amp that weighs 155 lbs. Driving a restored pair of Ohm F’s by Millersound.

So far the two amps sound identical. The Ohm F’s are inefficient so this is a good big power test. Probably not a good first watt test. More to follow. It takes about 5 minutes to swap everything out so this is not a true A/B test, more of a long term listening test.

 

[W9TR]

I have owned a few pieces of Benchmark. I also know a few people who owned the amp, and have actual sold them.

What I know is that Benchmark I have owned or heard sounded good, however they all sound very sterile. They just seem to lack that musical magic in my opinion.

The analogy that one member wrote struke a cord with me. Many amps make me want to turn them, Benchmark made me want to turn the music down.

I am enjoying the DAC 3 HGC I bought from you Randy. Wow, that was a long time ago. It is paired with overly romantic McIntosh tube gear, C 2300 and MC 275 V. The synergy is excellent. Not sure that D/A would work in my more revealing main system. This synergy thing just might catch on.

 

[Feanor]

You are off base, you are saying if zero bias everyone would choose Class D, well wrong! You who have ears let them hear.

If any bias let Class D sound like an actual instrument and not be one dimensional.

It's also one dimensional to think low distortion is the only aspect of an amp. Amp 101, POWER SUPPLY.

I agree. I agree because some people like certain amount of distortion, (in objective terms, of the 2nd/3rd order variety), because they find the effect pleasant, (one again we may say warm, full, "organic", etc.). This ISN'T bias it's an esthetic preference.

But for my part I want to the hear the record as produced: as unmodified from the intent of recording & mastering engineers as possible, (this too is an esthetic preference I suppose). This can be obtained only by a very low distortion reproduction chain. That isn't a matter of class D, it's a matter of the fact of ultra-low distortion.

Yeah for sure: some recordings are better than others, that's just the way it is.

 

[Feanor]

I have a Purifi Eigentakt (latest generation) Buckeye amp in my system now. I’m comparing it to a McIntosh MC 602 600 wpc amp that weighs 155 lbs. Driving a restored pair of Ohm F’s by Millersound.

So far the two amps sound identical. The Ohm F’s are inefficient so this is a good big power test. Probably not a good first watt test. More to follow. It takes about 5 minutes to swap everything out so this is not a true A/B test, more of a long term listening test.

I'd venture that they ought to sound the same. Macs in the MC 602 vintage and later tend to test ultra-low distortion -- just like the Buckeye Eigentakt. Thus tending to demonstrate my point that it's not a matter of class D, but of ultra-low distortion however achieved.

(The matter of price is a whole other matter.)

 

[Michaels HiFi]

But for my part I want to the hear the record as produced: as unmodified from the intent of recording & mastering engineers as possible, (this too is an esthetic preference I suppose). This can be obtained only by a very low distortion reproduction chain. That isn't a matter of class D, it's a matter of the fact of ultra-low distortion.

Hi Feanor - I've always found this interesting when people have this preference.

There are some great recordings and some very poor recordings available. I mean this as an honest question: you are ok with listening to a very poor recording even if it sounds poor because that's how someone made it? Would you not rather make it pleasant to listen to?

Would you not rather listen to something that sounds good regardless of how someone in a the recording chain made it?

Again, I'm not saying your preference is wrong - just a friendly discussion.

 

[Randy Myers]

I am enjoying the DAC 3 HGC I bought from you Randy. Wow, that was a long time ago. It is paired with overly romantic McIntosh tube gear, C 2300 and MC 275 V. The synergy is excellent. Not sure that D/A would work in my more revealing main system. This synergy thing just might catch on.

Yes, that Benchmark was a nice DAC. I think it is still their top model, isn't it? I know Jon Iverson was a huge Benchmark DAC fan. We actually ran some comparisons at his house a few years ago.

I replaced it with my T+A mainly because of my adoration of DSD and T+A being a huge DSD supporter with their custom DSD decoders. It's limited support for DSD and it's super accurate but slightly sterile sound was the two main reasons I looked elsewhere.

 

[Randy Myers]

I have a Purifi Eigentakt (latest generation) Buckeye amp in my system now. I’m comparing it to a McIntosh MC 602 600 wpc amp that weighs 155 lbs. Driving a restored pair of Ohm F’s by Millersound.

So far the two amps sound identical. The Ohm F’s are inefficient so this is a good big power test. Probably not a good first watt test. More to follow. It takes about 5 minutes to swap everything out so this is not a true A/B test, more of a long term listening test.

I had a Purifi amplifier a few years ago. The NAD version. It was very nice and I think the best of all the class D amps I have tried. I am very happy to be able to get back to my McIntosh amplifier. I am certain that part of the draw is me being a born and bred Binghamton boy .

The store that I managed back in the day sold Ohm. I really liked those speakers, a lot. The Walsh 5 was very high on my list! I never tried them at home because that was back when I was such a huge fan of KEF, and my 104aB's were one component that I would not consider changing.

 

[Hear Here]

I have a Purifi Eigentakt (latest generation) Buckeye amp in my system now. I’m comparing it to a McIntosh MC 602 600 wpc amp that weighs 155 lbs. Driving a restored pair of Ohm F’s by Millersound.

So far the two amps sound identical. The Ohm F’s are inefficient so this is a good big power test. Probably not a good first watt test. More to follow. It takes about 5 minutes to swap everything out so this is not a true A/B test, more of a long term listening test.

Not all Purifi Eigentakt amps are eqully good. Beware of garage-built Purifi amps that are offered cheaply on Ebay, etc. They are very likely to use the Purifi Eval(uation) board that is primarily intended for DIY'ers, and also likely to have power supplies and other parts less good than the best Eigentakt-based amps. Some brands build under license to ensure optimum component and sound quality - I understand NAD and T+A build under license, at least on their top models.

I've no experience with Buckeye, but I do use NAD's Master Series. The M33 was Stereophile's Amplifier of the Year and Editors' Choice, so can't be that bad! The M33 V2 has the Second Generation Eigentakt amplifier, as well as an excellent DAC – top ESS model

 

[2FarGone]

I’ve yet to hear a Class D amp that will replace any of my amps. How long have we been hearing about the wonderful world of Class D only for it to continue to fall flat. Anybody talk to Jeff Rowland? Well, I have. He literally beat the Class D drum for years only to admit to me “nobody wants it.” I will tell you this, IMHO, he damaged his company doing so. If he had just stuck building great Class AB amps, he would have done much better.

For what it’s worth, I have a Rowland model 10 class D amp in one of my systems. On Odeon La Bohemes with all good cabling, I found it bettered a KR Audio Antares in nearly every area, with the Rowland giving up a slight edge to the Antares only on female vocals. At low volumes especially, the Rowland is clearly better.

The only issue have with the 10 is the obvious extravagance of the case work - I’d personally prefer to see a more modest case and a lower price tag. It should also be noted that the 10 has the upgraded power supplies, but it disappears into the music like no other amp I’ve owned, and I’ve had a few good ones.

The Antares with KR 300B tubes is no slouch, BTW. I hope to try it on a pair of JBL HDI 3800s today, which should be enlightening.

 

[2FarGone]

I had a Purifi amplifier a few years ago. The NAD version. It was very nice and I think the best of all the class D amps I have tried. I am very happy to be able to get back to my McIntosh amplifier. I am certain that part of the draw is me being a born and bred Binghamton boy .

The store that I managed back in the day sold Ohm. I really liked those speakers, a lot. The Walsh 5 was very high on my list! I never tried them at home because that was back when I was such a huge fan of KEF, and my 104aB's were one component that I would not consider changing.

I had a pair of Walsh 4s. They were very nice speakers as well. They did like to be driven by an amp with extravagant power delivery, though.

 

[Hear Here]

Their latest speakers fall far short - as many I've spoke with agree - because they are now tied to Class D amps. AG has seriously lost their way in pricing and now the sound with the built in Class D amps.

Many speakers require serious amounts of set up - like the Tobians - yet they manage to sound great at shows.

You are factually wrong in suggesting that Avantgarde's latest models are "tied to Class D amps" - as you are about camera lenses.

These new speakers are offered in fully active iTron versions and in hybrid versions where you can choose your whatever amp you fancy for the horn drivers.

In contrast to your assertion that "their latest speakers fall far short", the iTron versions have been highly praised by reviewers and owners alike.

However I do agree with you that AG have "lost their way in pricing", as a top model now costs as much as a family car! Despite this, I doubt they are overpriced when compared with other high end speakers.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

You are factually wrong in suggesting that Avantgarde's latest models are "tied to Class D amps" - as you are about camera lenses.

In contrast to your assertion that "their latest speakers fall far short", the iTron versions have been highly praised by reviewers and owners alike.

LOL. What ever makes you feel better.

 

[Mr Peabody]

For what it’s worth, I have a Rowland model 10 class D amp in one of my systems. On Odeon La Bohemes with all good cabling, I found it bettered a KR Audio Antares in nearly every area, with the Rowland giving up a slight edge to the Antares only on female vocals. At low volumes especially, the Rowland is clearly better.

The only issue have with the 10 is the obvious extravagance of the case work - I’d personally prefer to see a more modest case and a lower price tag. It should also be noted that the 10 has the upgraded power supplies, but it disappears into the music like no other amp I’ve owned, and I’ve had a few good ones.

The Antares with KR 300B tubes is no slouch, BTW. I hope to try it on a pair of JBL HDI 3800s today, which should be enlightening.

IMO, the 3800's are excellent, much better than the price would allow you to believe. They were stunning driven by a hegel 590. They need a medium to large room.

 

[Mr Peabody]

I agree. I agree because some people like certain amount of distortion, (in objective terms, of the 2nd/3rd order variety), because they find the effect pleasant, (one again we may say warm, full, "organic", etc.). This ISN'T bias it's an esthetic preference.

But for my part I want to the hear the record as produced: as unmodified from the intent of recording & mastering engineers as possible, (this too is an esthetic preference I suppose). This can be obtained only by a very low distortion reproduction chain. That isn't a matter of class D, it's a matter of the fact of ultra-low distortion.

Yeah for sure: some recordings are better than others, that's just the way it is.

You assume Class D is the only amps that are low distortion, wrong. As an example my Levinson is very low distortion yet sounds much better than any Class D I've heard so far. It takes more to make music than low distortion. Correct your tunnel vision.

If you measured the sound when a band or orchestra was playing it wouldn't look like a ruler, just saying.

You don't have to let your ears bleed on principle

For the record I want an honest rendering of the recording. I wouldn't have sought out higher end gear if I wanted everything glossed over. Like most things there are extremes.

 

[Randy Myers]

Not all Purifi Eigentakt amps are eqully good. Beware of garage-built Purifi amps that are offered cheaply on Ebay, etc. They are very likely to use the Purifi Eval(uation) board that is primarily intended for DIY'ers, and also likely to have power supplies and other parts less good than the best Eigentakt-based amps. Some brands build under license to ensure optimum component and sound quality - I understand NAD and T+A build under license, at least on their top models.

I've no experience with Buckeye, but I do use NAD's Master Series. The M33 was Stereophile's Amplifier of the Year and Editors' Choice, so can't be that bad! The M33 V2 has the Second Generation Eigentakt amplifier, as well as an excellent DAC – top ESS model

Yes, T+A and NAD both build custom Purifi amplifiers under license. I had an NAD 298 (if I remember correctly) and it was 100% NAD's own design under license using Purifi technology.

At some point I would love to try the new T+A A 200 and DAC 200.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

The M33 was Stereophile's Amplifier of the Year and Editors' Choice, so can't be that bad!

It's interesting that you are always saying that to defend your choice for using NAD.

If you like it then it's good enough. You don't need to keep trying to justify it.

I've heard it several times and it is certainly a decent mid-fi amp for sure.

Using a bought-and-paid-for award to justify you liking it isn't necessary.. Just enjoy it.

 

[Randy Myers]

It's interesting that you are always saying that to defend your choice for using NAD.

If you like it then it's good enough. You don't need to keep trying to justify it.

I've heard it several times and it is certainly a decent mid-fi amp for sure.

Using a bought-and-paid-for award to justify you liking it isn't necessary.. Just enjoy it.

Michael, please get off your high and mighty attitude. I certainly would not call Stereophile bought and paid for awards... but who the hell cares anyway. You believe every audio magazine is bought and paid for, and I disagree. We will leave it at that.