Switched to Class D or get left behind?

[Randy Myers]

I have tried a variety of Class D amps. Wyred 4 Sound, Bel Cantos, NAD, PS Audio, etc. From Ice to Purifi. While good, none seemed to have that special something. They all left me feeling dry or lacking. No warm and cuddly feeling that some amps have given me. First Watt, ARC, McIntosh, Audio Mirror, MBL, JOB, etc.

When I purchased my new McIntosh, I spoke directly with a gentleman at McIntosh tech support. Come to find out he was a nephew of a good friend from high school. We talked for a very long time, and he could not believe that I knew his uncle back in high school.

Anyway, they do offer a line of Class D amps that I believe use the Purifi amp technology. He highly suggested that I stick with their standard amps for a music first system. He said the class D are very good for a surround sound entertainment system, but their standard amps are better for my needs.

I had also decided to stay away from tubes at this point. Every tube amplifier I have owned have always been quite finicky. Preamps are a different story. I jumped back in on a headphone amp. Woo is incredibly stable with tubes and show some real improvements with better tubes. I got a set of 5691 driver tubes that arrived yesterday. Wow, I have never seen a pair of upgraded tubes make that much of a difference!

 

[roncagg]

As a class A fan (FirstWatt, Pass, Sugden, Almarro tube amp) I was very pleasantly surprised by the sound of the wyred 4 sound mINT I just bought for a 2nd (Roon streaming only) system. Using the Zen Stream as Roon endpoint, the internal DAC of the mINT, and feeding Harbeth P3esr standmounts results in a compact system that sounds great. The ICE modules used in the amp give the P3esr the juice they like, and I prefer this pairing to the A21se sig in my main system on these speakers. FWIW!

 

[Feanor]

8I’ve yet to hear a Class D amp that will replace any of my amps. How long have we been hearing about the wonderful world of Class D only for it to continue to fall flat. Anybody talk to Jeff Rowland? Well, I have. He literally beat the Class D drum for years only to admit to me “nobody wants it.” I will tell you this, IMHO, he damaged his company doing so. If he had just stuck building great Class AB amps, he would have done much better.

Mike, as a dealer in high-end equipment, I wonder if you'll admit admit to a certain bias?

It isn't really just about current, (amazing and cost-effective), class D amps from the likes of Hypex, Purifi, and Atma-Sphere, it's about ultra-low distortion. So for instance there is the Benchmark AHB2 and now also the Topping B200, both ultra-low distortion and both NOT class D. At least some McIntosh models also fall into the ultra-low distortion category, (if you must spend a lot of money).

To be sure some of us audiophiles LIKE a certain amount of distortion. I believe Ralph of Atma-Sphere agrees with my conclusions about distortion -- I beg him to correct me if I'm wrong about that.

• 2nd and 3rd order harmonic distortions pleasant effects or at least are benign
• These low-order harmonics also serve to MASK unpleasant high-order distortions

Today's ultra-low distortion amps don't have any high-order harmonics that need to be masked -- unlike many S/S amps of the '70s and '80's. What's relevant today is that the is still a large group of audiophile who crave the "warmth", "fullness", "bloom", etc. that 2nd & 3rd harmonics confer.

 

[Coppy]

I love my Atma-Sphere Class D monos too. I chose them for many of the reasons listed. I also wish for 12v triggers. At least the power switch is on the front (yes, I’m looking at you FirstWatt).

They sound wonderfull, perhaps a bit less “sweet” than my DIY Nelson Pass gear, but much clearer. And of course, you can easily put both under your arms and move about without throwing your back.

However, I keep eyeing the ModWright KWA 99 monoblocks with the first 15 watts of class A… Have 12v triggers, but my ModWright preamp does not. (Wondering if that could be retrofitted)

12V Triggers? Just leave them on. Better sound that way as well.

 

[steve59]

I didn't care for the peachtree nova int and how obviously limited it was, but the lumin m1 60 wpc streaming integrated amp acquitted itself nicely compared to the other int's in the under $5k range. From what I've heard class D can compete with the other entry level hifi products from conventional class a/b builds. Why Jeff Roland or other established Luxury brands would start polishing and selling cubic zirconium as diamonds I sure don't know.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

I've heard a lot of Class D at all price points and never been impressed.

Having said that so far among the best Class D I've heard at any price is the TEAC AP-701.

 

[Hear Here]

I’ve yet to hear a Class D amp that will replace any of my amps. How long have we been hearing about the wonderful world of Class D only for it to continue to fall flat. Anybody talk to Jeff Rowland? Well, I have. He literally beat the Class D drum for years only to admit to me “nobody wants it.” I will tell you this, IMHO, he damaged his company doing so. If he had just stuck building great Class AB amps, he would have done much better.

The same was said a couple of decades ago about digital photography, but it has now surpassed film to the extent that even buying film is near impossible. Other ss Classes will surely go the way of film in the near future, though there are diehards who will stick with their quaint vinyl players and valve amps until the day they die - and good luck to them - it's their own money that they are extravagantly spending.!

 

[MontanaJoe]

The same was said a couple of decades ago about digital photography, but it has now surpassed film to the extent that even buying film is near impossible. Other ss Classes will surely go the way of film in the near future, though there are diehards who will stick with their quaint vinyl players and valve amps until the day they die - and good luck to them - it's their own money that they are extravagantly spending.!

Maybe I am missing something in your post, are you implying that Class D IS THE FUTURE and will be replacing other amps the way digital photography replaced film?

 

[Hear Here]

It isn't really just about current, (amazing and cost-effective), class D amps from the likes of Hypex, Purifi, and Atma-Sphere, it's about ultra-low distortion. So for instance there is the Benchmark AHB2 and now also the Topping B200, both ultra-low distortion and both NOT class D. At least some McIntosh models also fall into the ultra-low distortion category, (if you must spend a lot of money).

You mention the Benchmark amp with its ultra-low distortion. It's also ultra boring and it my unheard purchase of an AHB2 that prompted a year-long multi-amp home listening session that resulted in an appreciation of how much difference there is in a bunch of good quality ss amps of all Classes. I was expecting a Class A amp to win me over, but it was a Class D one that I chose in the end. Amps from GamuT and Accuphase were lovely (Mark Levinson and a couple of others also pretty good), but the modest NAD M33 eventually convinced me that Class D had reached the point that a well-chosen one will rival just about anything out there and beats most others - certainly at the price or even double the price.

 

[Hear Here]

Maybe I am missing something in your post, are you implying that Class D IS THE FUTURE and will be replacing other amps the way digital photography replaced film?

I'm not saying that definitely, but I suspect the answer is "probably" if people are solely interested in the sound that reaches their ears without bias against Class D. As with all Classes of amp, there will be some that match well with a particular spoeaker while others don't, so home demos of likely contenders remains an essential test before final purchase.

 

[Mechnutt]

Ralph as seen the light and states his main reason for going down the Class D route is sound quality. I wonder if he also recognises that price is so much lower than his very costly OTL valve amps that he is unlikely to stay in business if he offers only these costly monsters!

I have a pair of his Class D monos and they are very good. How much better they are than a well-implements Purifi Eigentakt amp is less clear. I have both and both have proved excellent, and considerable better value than any of the other ss amps I've had in my system, even those costing double the price.

Ralph should really spend time developing his Class D range to include a stereo amp and an integrated, as his sole offering at present is the mono amps. More power would be attractive addition too for many buyers, either via a more powerful Class D module, or possibly less costly to develop, a bridgeable version of his existing one.

My only criticism of these mones is their lack of 12V triggers - so important with mono amps, particularly placed out of sight or tucked away close to the speakers.

I will take his tube gear over the Class D monos'. A local friend of mine bought one of the first pairs of the Class D mono's and he already owns the MA-1's. The MA-1's sound way better. He brought the Class D's over to my house. They sounded nice but I did not think that they were special. My Pass X250 amp sounded much better. My friend eventually sold the Class D amps and stuck with his MA-1's and the M-1 preamp.

 

[Feanor]

You mention the Benchmark amp with its ultra-low distortion. It's also ultra boring and it my unheard purchase of an AHB2 that prompted a year-long multi-amp home listening session that resulted in an appreciation of how much difference there is in a bunch of good quality ss amps of all Classes. I was expecting a Class A amp to win me over, but it was a Class D one that I chose in the end. Amps from GamuT and Accuphase were lovely (Mark Levinson and a couple of others also pretty good), but the modest NAD M33 eventually convinced me that Class D had reached the point that a well-chosen one will rival just about anything out there and beats most others - certainly at the price or even double the price.

So FWIW I've heard others say the Benchmark is boring. I haven't heard it myself. If true, presumably it's some sort of dynamic limitation.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

The same was said a couple of decades ago about digital photography, but it has now surpassed film to the extent that even buying film is near impossible.

Yet those seeking the best look possible still shoot film and film shooting is making a huge comeback.

In fact vintage film camera lenses are going up in value as many photographers going for a more natural and less harsh digital look are ditching new digital camera lenses and realizing older really is better.

Their comments are all the same - the digital lenses measure better, but the old film lenses look more natural.

For my cine camera I spent so much freaking money on chasing what the forums sad about digital lenses. I was never satisfied.

Then I decided to join the movement of going old school and started experimenting with vintage lenses owning Zeiss, Leica, Canon, and more (adapters are a wonderful thing).

The best of all the lenses I've ever owned at ANY price point? The $200 Pentax lenses from the 1970's I own. There is a clear and noticeable difference when I use them vs any modern lens. It's not even close which looks more natural.

 

[Dizzie]

So FWIW I've heard others say the Benchmark is boring. I haven't heard it myself. If true, presumably it's some sort of dynamic limitation.

There is no dynamic limitation with the AHB2. In fact, it is quite powerful. What is missing in a richer harmonic structure and "warmth" in the midrange associated with many other amplifiers.

 

[Hear Here]

In fact vintage film camera lenses are going up in value as many photographers going for a more natural and less harsh digital look are ditching new digital camera lenses and realizing older really is better.

Their comments are all the same - the digital lenses measure better, but the old film lenses look more natural.

Not sure where you read that, but I was a pro photographer for decades and used film cameras with what you describe as "film" lenses, though there is zero difference between lenses used on digital cameras and film cameras of the same sensor size. 35 mm lenses are the same now as they were 20 years ago apart from normal evolution. I retired from photography at about the time digital became the only standard that clients wanted, so I hardly ever used digital professionally - and then only with "film" lenses on a digital camera.

If your claim that "film" lenses are increasing in value is true, that's good news to me as I have a dozen or so good 35 mm lenses and about 6 medium or large format ones - most of them looking for new homes.

 

[Hear Here]

So FWIW I've heard others say the Benchmark is boring. I haven't heard it myself. If true, presumably it's some sort of dynamic limitation.

The Benchmark was an amp where the temptation was to turn down the volume, rather than turn it up to get excited by the music playing. If you like "Muzak" then the Benchmark may be a great choice. It does have some very nice features though, including it's gain switches

 

[Michaels HiFi]

Not sure where you read that, but I was a pro photographer for decades and used film cameras with what you describe as "film" lenses, though there is zero difference between lenses used on digital cameras and film cameras of the same sensor size. 35 mm lenses are the same now as they were 20 years ago apart from normal evolution. I retired from photography at about the time digital became the only standard that clients wanted, so I hardly ever used digital professionally - and then only with "film" lenses on a digital camera.

If your claim that "film" lenses are increasing in value is true, that's good news to me as I have a dozen or so good 35 mm lenses and about 6 medium or large format ones - most of them looking for new homes.

I haven't read it anywhere. It's being part of the photo and cine groups and associations I am members of here in the USA. It's based on real life experiences and the two cine camera companies I am friends with and work with out of Hollywood.

Cinema lenses are designed with a very different set of priorities than normal digital camera lenses as all photographers know.

It seems your experience in the past in the UK does not align with what we are seeing and experiencing here in the States.

It's different here than it is over where you are.

 

[MontanaJoe]

I'm not saying that definitely, but I suspect the answer is "probably" if people are solely interested in the sound that reaches their ears without bias against Class D. As with all Classes of amp, there will be some that match well with a particular spoeaker while others don't, so home demos of likely contenders remains an essential test before final purchase.

pretty bold statement, which I will "probably" predict is wrong.

You know, I have heard your speakers, never been enamored with them UNTIL Mike's last FL show. I believe they were being shown with VAC electronics and WADAX StudioPlayer. We went in "reluctantly" and to me this room was one of the two best at the show, by far the best I have ever heard them. I looked at my friend and said, I could not just "easily" live with them but if I was in the market, this "system" would be on my list.

 

[Mr Peabody]

I'm not saying that definitely, but I suspect the answer is "probably" if people are solely interested in the sound that reaches their ears without bias against Class D. As with all Classes of amp, there will be some that match well with a particular spoeaker while others don't, so home demos of likely contenders remains an essential test before final purchase.

You are off base, you are saying if zero bias everyone would choose Class D, well wrong! You who have ears let them hear.

If any bias let Class D sound like an actual instrument and not be one dimensional.

It's also one dimensional to think low distortion is the only aspect of an amp. Amp 101, POWER SUPPLY.