Super Speaker Shootout - which design wins?

Hopefully a better spokesman for line source speakers pipes in and saves me, but here it goes. The answer to your question above Mike is YES. The best line sources will match the dynamics of a horn system in the midrange and high end, and crush it in the bass. I don't quite understand the physics, but the line source will "penetrate" the room differently than a point source. They lose less of their steam over distance. You combine that with wide dispersion and even power response and you get much better sound overall.

The reason I posted the pic of the dragons in the auditorium (over 300 people present) is that NO other speaker design could begin to pull of high end sound in that situation, its not even close. That because of the design.

The only downside of the line source is that not many people build them. So the ones that do have a real issue with sourcing or building their own drivers. Line source drivers just haven't progressed to the same degree as cones and domes over the last 20 years.
But as a design paradigm, cost no object, it would clearly be the way to go, provided you have a room large enough to house them. For a speaker like the Genesis Prime, that means a 20' wide, 6000 cu ft room , minimum. So the discussion usually ends right there.
 
annapolis Raider said:
Hopefully a better spokesman for line source speakers pipes in and saves me, but here it goes. The answer to your question above Mike is YES. The best line sources will match the dynamics of a horn system in the midrange and high end, and crush it in the bass. I don't quite understand the physics, but the line source will "penetrate" the room differently than a point source. They lose less of their steam over distance. You combine that with wide dispersion and even power response and you get much better sound overall.

The reason I posted the pic of the dragons in the auditorium (over 300 people present) is that NO other speaker design could begin to pull of high end sound in that situation, its not even close. That because of the design.

The only downside of the line source is that not many people build them. So the ones that do have a real issue with sourcing or building their own drivers. Line source drivers just haven't progressed to the same degree as cones and domes over the last 20 years.
But as a design paradigm, cost no object, it would clearly be the way to go, provided you have a room large enough to house them. For a speaker like the Genesis Prime, that means a 20' wide, 6000 cu ft room , minimum. So the discussion usually ends right there.
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A Full horn is not considered a point source as it drops off the same as a line-source when doubling distance and BTW many confuse wave guides with Horns, they are very different , there are many speakers which have wave guides on their tweeters, some on both twt/mid , but they are not horn loaded ..


I would expect the Trio with bass horns or any large Horn to pull of the "auditorium " presentation as well as the Gen1, different , yes, but able ....


Regards ...
 
I agree. It really does depend on what you are trying to achieve.

I love dynamics and live music has more dynamics than most stereo systems. What I find is that even thinking about "dynamics" it gets very complicated. Just thinking of dynamics nothing else --- for a stereo to reproduce a full symphony the dynamic requirements are different than a stereo reproducing the dynamics of a jazz trio, or an acoustical guitar and singer or a rock band. Don't forget about rap and techno.

And then if you go to live music. Almost any amplified venue - the bass is overwhelming. It's like they decided to add 20 db right at the frequency where the kick drum is. Even if it's a piano player - if its amplified it has this exaggerated bass. In a stereo - we hate this bump. But if LIVE is what you want to reproduce - don't you have to have that? So if it isn't live that we are trying to reproduce. What is it?

To me - SOTA systems should do it all GREAT. Most don't. In fact, I've never heard one that did everything GREAT. They do one type great and the rest dang good. One has to choose what suits their soul.

Or have at least 2 SOTA systems - we are talking money no object!!!! :woot:

Mike said:
.....

I keep wondering to myself: what is the reference point people use? Do they want something pleasing and don't give a sh!t if it sounds dynamically live? If relaxing/non-offensive/smooth sounds are what some people are after, that would explain the popularity of BBC based speakers. If people are regularly attending live music or they are musicians, then their reference point might be something quite different.

......
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a.wayne said:
A Full horn is not considered a point source as it drops off the same as a line-source when doubling distance and BTW many confuse wave guides with Horns, they are very different , there are many speakers which have wave guides on their tweeters, some on both twt/mid , but they are not horn loaded ..


I would expect the Trio with bass horns or any large Horn to pull of the "auditorium " presentation as well as the Gen1, different , yes, but able ....


Regards ...
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I respectfully disagree, Horns don't have the dispersion characteristics of a line source. You would have vast differences in sound with respect to seating. Off axis listening would be much worse.
 
With small Horns yes, not with a large horn designed for that kind of coverage. Most horns you are exposed to are scaled for domestic use...
 
you've just made my point, Trios wouldn't begin to work........., and even large pro audio horns have huge problems with doing deep bass
 
the professor said:
To me - SOTA systems should do it all GREAT. Most don't. In fact, I've never heard one that did everything GREAT. They do one type great and the rest dang good. One has to choose what suits their soul.

:woot:
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Then it' not a SOTA system and less face it , what we are discussing is all relative , Hi FI system ( any) will never be like live music, none i have ever heard can reproduce the percussive energy of live instruments. My Son plays the trumpet, when he is practicing at home its unbelievable, I Know of no system capable of reproducing his trumpet blast and tone , same for any live instrument i have ever heard. Many years ago i tried recording a grand piano in a friends house in a 28 x 50 room with cathedral ceilings , it was mind boggling ...

The dynamic power and percussive energy produced by that piano was unbelievable to hear at full chat , it's plenty reason to understand why many musicians dont really pay attn to hi-fi systems ..



Then there was that time i heard a full Symphony Orchestra in their practice hall, a 1/4 of the space of the typical Symphony Hall ... you dont wanna know ..



:)
 
AR,

You cant keep throwing out straw-men arguments like that, I did not say the trio would not work , I'm stating that auditorium is nothing for a horn system to cover and worse if it was designed for that kind of coverage. I can assure you the Gen1 had a completely different sound off axis than on or center position. at the rear of the hall the horns would have better power and coverage , as the gen 1 would already have exceeded it's line length and would not be considered a line-source anymore.


If you heard a good Horn system you would be surprised how close it sounds to a speaker like a gen1 and no one uses horn bass domestically due to the size, most would end up with direct radiators like the gen 1 for domestic or even pro audio use, Horns doing low bass is not for me too ..


Regards...
 
A Wayne, I'm going to let it go.... just for the record, I lived with Trios for 3 years, in NO way was it comparable to what I've heard in detail with Dragons in Hong Kong at 3 different locations.
 
AR,


i never said trios, i never said your Trios and for the record , I have had all types of loudspeakers over the years, some bought, others loaned , most i designed (SOTA LEVEL) when i did this for a living, with all due respect none of Arnie's designed knew what coherency meant , in speaking to Gary he has culled most of those issues and even thou i have never heard a Dragon, i would go out on a limb, wing it and say i believe i would prefer the dragons to the Trio's myself , but I'm also keenly aware of what Horns ( not specifically saying Trios) can do with the right amplification , even after hearing 1 million really bad ones ..


Very likely you will hear a bad Horn system before you hear a bad panel and i have heard my share of those too.


Again for the record , A linesource Ribbon does it for me ( not planer magnetic) , but this is not the INDY 500 , there is no one winner , there are other designs which are capable .. ...


Regards ...
 
Does anyone know if the tweeter in the Dragon is the same as the one in the Forte? I ask because the Forte drove me out of the room. I found them quite bright. Could have been the amps, room, cabling, etc. Just curious.

https://youtu.be/EM-11EX__HA


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Cutting my own throat here, lol. Gary forgive me if I ever get a room that can accommodate your big boys.

Gary can't demo his own stuff. Most of his electronics are poor. He, personally likes a brighter setup than I or you (Mike) may prefer. It can be tamed out of the setup, (once you get Gary out of the room), lol.

BTW, A lot of manufacturers would be much better off if they let others demo and setup there stuff.
 
I believe they are the same , those tweeters were far from harsh the last time i heard them and no ribbons in that model . I'm also surprised Gary uses class-D on his speakers, it works for him as others ...
 
HF hearing loss comes with age. All the more reason to measure as well and not solely "trust your ears".
They can lie quite a bit the older one gets :)
 
If you use live acoustic instruments as your reference along with measurements the hearing loss deal is highly overrated, but if your client base is deaf and dont ,



then ... :)
 
I do have to say something nice. Nobody in the business, cares more, or is more a music lover than Gary Koh. He puts a lot of time and energy into his demos. All around one of the good guys in the business.
 
annapolis Raider said:
A Wayne, I'm going to let it go.... just for the record, I lived with Trios for 3 years, in NO way was it comparable to what I've heard in detail with Dragons in Hong Kong at 3 different locations.
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Were your trios with bass horns?
 
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