Super Speaker Shootout - which design wins?

Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

Mike Lavigne said:
well.....you can keep playing that tune.

or.....you can travel around with your bag of Lps and visit cone based and horn based systems and listen for yourself and (if you can control your biases) determine what total package gets most to the whole picture of the music. plan on spending years and getting on lots of airplanes.

you will find that there are so many moving parts to any system that the speakers are just one aspect. and not nearly as dominant as your present viewpoint embraces.

otherwise it's just opinion and theory.
Click to expand...

Mike, it's not a tune, it's my opinion based on hundreds and hundreds of cone & dome systems I've heard. I'm also a musician, I know what live music sounds like.

Let's agree to disagree and move on. There's is plenty I could say, but I think it's best if we get back to discussing the WAMM speakers. This thread has already been significantly derailed.
 
Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

Ok, willingly into the mud I go......

As to omnis like the MBL, I have personally never heard a good setup. The two occasions I heard them, they were bright not my thing at all. I reserve the right to change my mind if I hear a better setup....

Horns on the other hand, I know very well. I lived with Trios, currently have Zeros, and have heard many good horn setups.
Horns rule on dynamics in a limited range of frequencies. Low bass of the Field Coil woofers in Focal for example crushes any commercially built horn. Horns also have serious issues with coherency and driver integration. You can improve that with proper setup (listening distance is critical) and a little dsp. Horns also don't come close to replicating the soundstage or scale of a good line source. Something like the Genesis Dragons make all horns IMHO sound hopelessly hifi.

Pick your poison, everything has warts. Everyone has a different idea about which warts they find most intrusive on the illusion of the real thing.

For me, I would have a 4 piece hybrid line source as my ultimate, Big Genesis, Gryphon Pendragon, Piega Master Line Source.(I'm sure there are others) would all qualify. But these all require a large (wide) dedicated listening room which I don't have. So just like everyone else, I compromise.
 
Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

annapolis Raider said:
Ok, willingly into the mud I go......

As to omnis like the MBL, I have personally never heard a good setup. The two occasions I heard them, they were bright not my thing at all. I reserve the right to change my mind if I hear a better setup....

Horns on the other hand, I know very well. I lived with Trios, currently have Zeros, and have heard many good horn setups.
Horns rule on dynamics in a limited range of frequencies. Low bass of the Field Coil woofers in Focal for example crushes any commercially built horn. Horns also have serious issues with coherency and driver integration. You can improve that with proper setup (listening distance is critical) and a little dsp. Horns also don't come close to replicating the soundstage or scale of a good line source. Something like the Genesis Dragons make all horns IMHO sound hopelessly hifi.

Pick your poison, everything has warts. Everyone has a different idea about which warts they find most intrusive on the illusion of the real thing.

For me, I would have a 4 piece hybrid line source as my ultimate, Big Genesis, Gryphon Pendragon, Piega Master Line Source.(I'm sure there are others) would all qualify. But these all require a large (wide) dedicated listening room which I don't have. So just like everyone else, I compromise.
Click to expand...

I cannot agree at all. First, line arrays have their own issues with phase and timing, off axis listening, etc. The height variances of the drivers in the array also causes ultimate phase and timing issues. Every line source I've heard has phase challenges, despite months of careful setup and they still lack ultimate dynamics. The other issue with many line arrays I've heard is driver integration due to different materials between woofers, tweeters, etc.

I also feel the XD horns have achieved much better driver integration. I will admit that a lot of the older horns (even the older trios) had integration issues, but I'm not hearing the same with the XD series.

Again, YMMV. Back to the WAMM.


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Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

lol, phase and timing issues in a line source two way??? really?, off axis listening??? seriously...... I'm out... .sometimes its best to stay out of the mud
 
Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

@ Mike ,

Annapolis raider said Linesource not line arrays ....

@annapolis Raider ,

Genesis is planer magnetic not Ribbon , I think Gary is now building his own ribbons , I'm not sure thou, as to Horn Coherency , I have heard Horns which are very coherent , but do agree most are not , for some reason or the other ....
 
Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

Mike said:
I cannot agree at all. First, line arrays have their own issues with phase and timing, off axis listening, etc. The height variances of the drivers in the array also causes ultimate phase and timing issues. Every line source I've heard has phase challenges, despite months of careful setup and they still lack ultimate dynamics. The other issue with many line arrays I've heard is driver integration due to different materials between woofers, tweeters, etc.
Click to expand...

Hi Mike,

The Vandersteen Model 7 Mk2 do very well on phase and timing. Richard Vandersteen has focused on phase and timing issues for many years. He also uses the same carbon/balsa/carbon sandwich in the woofer, midrange and tweeter for better cohesiveness. He avoids using multiple drivers of the same size to avoid any interference between them. This is why they never produced the Vandersteen Model 9, it just didn't sound as good. The tradeoff is the Model 7 will not produce the ultimate dynamics of horns or a vertical array of drivers.

Many different ways to skin this cat. Horns, planar and dynamic speakers can all produce outstanding sound. It all depends on the execution of the particular design, matching system and listening room. This is an excellent discussion. I've enjoyed reading your opinions as well as the others. No absolutes in audio, it's whatever floats your own boat. I hope we have more discussions like this, quite interesting actually.

All the best,
Ken
 
At the request of another member, I have moved these discussions to their own thread.

The point is to have a civil discussion and to think outside the box (no pun intended). I apologize if my earlier posts came off the wrong way or rude in some manner. I guess we are all quite passionate, myself included.

In a system with cost no object as the basis, which speaker DESIGNS would most likely rise to the top. Size of room, ancillary components, budget is not an issue.

Admittedly, having not heard the Genesis Dragon or Gryphon line source designs, I can only comment on the ones I have heard Scaena, Audio Artistry, IRS Beta, Genesis Forte and a few others. They were not my cup of tea and ranged from awful and incoherent to excellent - with the odd caveat that I found everything I found sounded "super sized".

My personal pick would be either the MBL 101 Xtremes (Omnipolar) or a horn based system like the Trio XD with 6 basshorns, Magico Ultimate or the Silbatone acoustics Western Electric horns.

No design is perfect and many can range from sounding outstanding to terrible.

What designs do you like? (budget, room size, ancillary components are not an issue)?
 
a few thoughts about the cone-ribbon approach.

I think the hard part of fulfilling the promise of any ultimate speaker system is eliminating any weaknesses. and I mean 'any'. the total picture of the complete system needs balance and headroom. let's face it; these ultimate systems show their stuff at warp 9 when everything is flying. and yet they need an amplifier speaker relationship which has the nuance and delicacy of an amazing first watt. the bass extension has to be considerable to have true linearity for all musical content below 20hz into the teens flat, and there has to be total coherency and ease in the mid bass where the music lives.

the room needs to be big enough, and wide enough, for the music to breathe, and it needs to be live and energetic. and then that room has to be painstakingly mated to that speaker system over time to eliminate distortion.

amplification has to have considerable headroom to maintain ease and musical flow now matter the demands made.

and the system, power grid and room have to have a vanishingly low noise floor.

I have found that my Evolution Acoustics MM7 twin tower (750 pound each, 7' tall) speaker system and dart 458 mono block amps tics all the boxes.

the first attribute I appreciate is the passive main towers are rolled off to perfectly match the crossover from the active bass towers. and you have -4- 11" ceramic woofers per main tower only covering 30hz-250hz yet are 97db, 6ohm load. so you have all that driver surface without a crossover in this critical FR with minimal excursion. your active bass towers have -4- 15' subwoofers with -2- 1000 watt amps per tower. and then there is 550 watts from the darts into a 7ohm 97db efficient load so lots of headroom everywhere. bass extension has theoretical limits of -3 db at 7hz and -6 db at 3hz.

none of which matter at all if the speakers were not musical and transparent.

this 3000 pounds of speakers totally disappear in my room.
 
Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

Mike said:
Who thinks it would be a cone & dome speaker?

My money would be on:

Magico Ultimate (horn)
Avantgarde Trio XD (horn) with 6 bass horns
MBL 101 xTreme (omnipolar)
Living Voice Vox Olympian (horn)

In the Vintage category: Western Electric (horn)
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2016/05/fucking-hell-western-electric-horns-silbatone-fun/


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Click to expand...

Having heard all of those, though Magico and Vox only at Munich, I will take the Trios. Superb dynamics and bass integration. I won’t touch cones, too bloated, slow, and lack real timbre for me. No dynamics. Unless you set them up like Marty with big JL subs crossing over at 100 with Spectral in an incredible room

That said, I will take restored Apogees over Trios. They bring down the house on bass and dynamics and have that magic ribbon tone.

To Mike L’s post above, all this is short of Mike’s system, which is better than all of those but I wouldn’t advise anyone to try it at home. Might get hurt. And yes then we bring the room into the picture too, which is why his Gorillas disappear.

But for the average audiophile, who wants to plug and play his system, and get quick dynamics mainly driven with speaker-amp alone (not too much capacity for room treatment shaping etc) - the trios work best. Even Apogees need a certain minimum shape.

I don't like the MBLs at all btw
 
Mike Lavigne said:
a few thoughts about the cone-ribbon approach.

I think the hard part of fulfilling the promise of any ultimate speaker system is eliminating any weaknesses. and I mean 'any'. the total picture of the complete system needs balance and headroom. let's face it; these ultimate systems show their stuff at warp 9 when everything is flying. and yet they need an amplifier speaker relationship which has the nuance and delicacy of an amazing first watt. the bass extension has to be considerable to have true linearity for all musical content below 20hz into the teens flat, and there has to be total coherency and ease in the mid bass where the music lives.

the room needs to be big enough, and wide enough, for the music to breathe, and it needs to be live and energetic. and then that room has to be painstakingly mated to that speaker system over time to eliminate distortion.

amplification has to have considerable headroom to maintain ease and musical flow now matter the demands made.

and the system, power grid and room have to have a vanishingly low noise floor.

I have found that my Evolution Acoustics MM7 twin tower (750 pound each, 7' tall) speaker system and dart 458 mono block amps tics all the boxes.

the first attribute I appreciate is the passive main towers are rolled off to perfectly match the crossover from the active bass towers. and you have -4- 11" ceramic woofers per main tower only covering 30hz-250hz yet are 97db, 6ohm load. so you have all that driver surface without a crossover in this critical FR with minimal excursion. your active bass towers have -4- 15' subwoofers with -2- 1000 watt amps per tower. and then there is 550 watts from the darts into a 7ohm 97db efficient load so lots of headroom everywhere. bass extension has theoretical limits of -3 db at 7hz and -6 db at 3hz.

none of which matter at all if the speakers were not musical and transparent.

this 3000 pounds of speakers totally disappear in my room.
Click to expand...


Consensus MikeL ,

Give us a list , top 5 is OK unless you feel their's a top 10 and not necessary asking for a winner list , Top 5 can be in any order , only means your list would represent your sideways top 5 ...


Regards ...
 
Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

bonzo said:
Having heard all of those, though Magico and Vox only at Munich, I will take the Trios. Superb dynamics and bass integration. I won’t touch cones, too bloated, slow, and lack real timbre for me. No dynamics. Unless you set them up like Marty with big JL subs crossing over at 100 with Spectral in an incredible room

That said, I will take restored Apogees over Trios. They bring down the house on bass and dynamics and have that magic ribbon tone.

To Mike L’s post above, all this is short of Mike’s system, which is better than all of those but I wouldn’t advise anyone to try it at home. Might get hurt. And yes then we bring the room into the picture too, which is why his Gorillas disappear.

But for the average audiophile, who wants to plug and play his system, and get quick dynamics mainly driven with speaker-amp alone (not too much capacity for room treatment shaping etc) - the trios work best. Even Apogees need a certain minimum shape.

I don't like the MBLs at all btw
Click to expand...


Ked's Top 5 ....

apogee's
Trio with bass horns
Mikes MM7's


we are short .... :)


BTW, I remember you being smitten by a gen1 setup some years ago , is it off your top 5 now ..?


Mikes top 5

*Magico Ultimate (horn)
*Avantgarde Trio XD (horn) with 6 bass horns
*MBL 101 xTreme (omnipolar)
*Living Voice Vox Olympian (horn)
*In the Vintage category: Western Electric (horn)
 
Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

a.wayne said:
Ked ,

Top 5 .... :)
Click to expand...

Oh ok


  1. Yamamura and Apogee Grands
  2. Apogee Full Ranges and a couple of DIY VoTT horns I heard
  3. Trios with bass horns
  4. Apogee Duetta Signatures

All topped by ML system.

Well those are for bigger rooms

Smaller rooms,


  1. Apogee Duetta Signatures
  2. Audio Machina
  3. Stenheim Alumine 5
  4. YG Hailey
  5. Heco Direkt - low budget too
 
Further thoughts,

First a clarification, line sources and line arrays are NOT the same thing. True line sources have NO vertical dispersion. So they would not use conventional cones and domes. Scaena and Audio Artistry are NOT line sources. For those interested in more of the pluses of line source vs point source speakers. Gary Koh of Genesis is a far better spokesman than I, he talks about these things in detail both on his website and at WBF.

As far as my experience with "super speakers", I've come to a few conclusions.

You simply must have a 4 piece system. The benefits are beyond question. Small room physics simply can't be cheated. The best place for bass is almost never the best place for soundstaging, ,timbre and all the other qualities we value.

There are good designers working in all speaker types Regardless of how you may feel about a specific product, ,I think we can all agree that in general things are improving and even established brands, like a Wilson Audio, understand that they have to step up their game in this hyper competitive market.

DSP changes everthing. Right now I use Trinnov. I have experience with other products as well. I think there is little doubt that in the future. DSP will be a standard part of any super speaker system. Step response, Impulse response, Room correction, speaker correction, etc. Its simply too good to be ignored for too much longer. If accuracy is truly the goal of high performance audio, then DSP will be part of it.......
 
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