Standalone DACs under $10k?

I don't hear Ben with Mojo Audio talk so much about chips, processors and software. He seems to focus on the power supply. If you read TAS about the Wadax, its all about the PS. Same with MSB. The power supply. Even Xymox modding modems and routers, its the power supply. Then there is the case, isolation and dampening, quality of chokes. More pieces related to power and structural integrity and noise reduction.
Just some food for thought.
 
Kingrex said:
I don't hear Ben with Mojo Audio talk so much about chips, processors and software. He seems to focus on the power supply. If you read TAS about the Wadax, its all about the PS. Same with MSB. The power supply. Even Xymox modding modems and routers, its the power supply. Then there is the case, isolation and dampening, quality of chokes. More pieces related to power and structural integrity and noise reduction.
Just some food for thought.
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I am not a technical expert from the company nor a professional reviewer. T+A does talk about all of those things and more and I assume that Aqua La Voce does also. Also, all of the other companies do actually discuss the processes and processors also, in addition to power supplies and casing, etc., as does most every top notch company.
 
my recent experience with standalone DAC's is limited to the Schitt Yggdrasil 2 (not at all what I am after, although perhaps good at its price, returned via the company's excellent return policy) and the Aqua La Scala MkII (demo courtesy of Mike), the next step up the line from the La Voce and very nice sounding, but after burn-in completely indistinguishable from my current source. Like the T+A, the Schitt is often "promoted" by users and reviewers as competitive with other DACs well above its price range; let's just say I did not find that to be even close to true, and I'm sure that contributes to my skepticism (which admittedly may be totally unwarranted) about T+A, although I would still expect it to be a significant step up from the Yggy. I strongly suspect that I will end up with the MSB Discrete or dcs Bartok once I have had a chance to listen to them; yes both are "a bit" above $10k.
 
And both a highly rated machines with great reputations. A friend has the dCS and likes it (not love it). But he is a vinyl guy all the way and digital is not a big part of his normal music listening. He has mainly MBL with a very nice Basis table, going through an ARC Ref 10 phono stage. Way above my level.

I would not kick either to the curb :).... they are two names I would love to have an opportunity to try one day (especially the MSB).
 
Kingrex said:
I don't hear Ben with Mojo Audio talk so much about chips, processors and software. He seems to focus on the power supply. If you read TAS about the Wadax, its all about the PS. Same with MSB. The power supply. Even Xymox modding modems and routers, its the power supply. Then there is the case, isolation and dampening, quality of chokes. More pieces related to power and structural integrity and noise reduction.
Just some food for thought.
Click to expand...

+1

exactly ...the implementation / execution matters. the same conversion chip/circuitry implemented differently will certainly not have the same SQ characteristics.

analogously, i would expect a 300B tube to sound different in a shindo amp than in a bottlehead DIY kit.

;)
 
Information on a DACs construction and features is useful to determine if a given unit can do what one wants in terms of connections, compatible formats, possible upgrades, etc. It's unlikely to be useful in determining whether or not the sound of the entire unit is what a user wants or likes; only listening can determine that.
 
rbbert said:
Information on a DACs construction and features is useful to determine if a given unit can do what one wants in terms of connections, compatible formats, possible upgrades, etc. It's unlikely to be useful in determining whether or not the sound of the entire unit is what a user wants or likes; only listening can determine that.
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I don't disagree, however being able to listen to a variety of DACs is not at all possible for many/most people. I have listened to many, but through the expense and headaches of using a variety of units, many times having to sell them afterwards.
 
I have heard the T+A DAC and at 8x DSD with HQP it is hard to beat at almost any price. I have heard a few $1K dac's and none compare. Of course I have not heard every $1K DAC. The T+A sounds good at lower resolution but at 8X DSD it is off the hook as far as sound is concerned. But you need a computer that can do 8X DSD with HQP.
 
T+A is a good DAC when feed with DSD512 datastream. My friend owns one and we compared with many other DACs a while back. The only quirk with T+A is you need a beefy computer and need to use HQP to upsample, so add these cost to the total price as well.

To use the best filters/modulators with the latest HQP, it needs close to 5GHz processor speed and multiple cores as per Jussi (Hqp developer). This actually puts a lot of pressure on the power supply, especially if you are using linear power supply whose efficiency is anyway far less. I have a 12A dedicated rail for the CPU and still it struggles. The other issue is if you are using passive cooling, you need to figure out the way to cool > 100watts which is not an easy feet. All these will automatically generate an inherent noise in the system and if the server is connected directly to the DAC, its very detrimental to the sound. Many users solve these drawbacks by splitting it into server & streamer combo but that has it own drawback of network related noise and other complexities.

I have experimented with all these at lengths and for many years and now prefer DACs which doesn't need to be feed with upsampled data to sound best. But if you are up for it, then T+A is an excellent choice. Another DAC along those lines is Holo Audio May DAC. This DAC does DSD1024 but many user review says it sounds excellent without a need to upsample and OS mode.

For regular DACs with 10k, you can take a look at Lampizator, Denafrips Terminator (+), Matrix Audio Element X. No DACs are perfect, so its a matter of taste and system synergy finally.
 
A good computer can be had in the $2k-$3 range +/-.

Remember it does not need all the frills although I do highly recommend a couple things. M.2 drives for storage (no heat, no noise, fast), Gold Standard Power Supply (just better), HQ Player uses multiple cores... so I use an 8 CPU machine (8 separate cores, not threads) and HQ Player drives them all but that that badly (30% +/-)... and one thing to consider is self contained liquid cooling. Works good and quitter. I was able to un-hook some extra case fans. My machine has 8 cores that run at 3.6 GHz but can spin up (Turbo) to 4.9. HQ Player is not bother what so ever for it. The machine does nothing but Roon (core only not the full GUI) and HQ Player. I also have a Wyred 4 Sound Recovery in line to re-clock the USB signal which does what it is supposed to do.

Some HQ Player filters may required a faster machine so I would think this is why Jussi recommend a 5 GHz processor.

BTW- the machine does also work wonderful not up-sampling, DSD files are nice, especially DSD256 and DSD512, or using Roon up-sampling which is not as hard on the processors. However I also feel that HQ Player does sound just a little bit better (I actually compared them the other day).
 
rbbert said:
I assume you mean $10k, not $1k?
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My $1K was a reply to the post by U-Sound who said that the T+A DAC is old and there are $1K DAC's that sound better. Although, I have heard a few DAC's around $10K and I liked them all. Each different but good. When it comes to DAC's you get what you pay for although some perform way above their price points This applies to all gear not just DAC's. Can you get good sound for cheap, yes but for great sound it is going to cost you some coin. The most satisfying system that I have heard was the $250K Boulder room at RMAF last year.
 
I get the feeling that hi-end audio is like art ... you fall in love with what you fall in love with ... whether you can afford it or not is a different matter. You alone have to decide if a singular piece is worth the investment (and return).
 
Randy Myers said:
A good computer can be had in the $2k-$3 range +/-.

Remember it does not need all the frills although I do highly recommend a couple things. M.2 drives for storage (no heat, no noise, fast), Gold Standard Power Supply (just better), HQ Player uses multiple cores... so I use an 8 CPU machine (8 separate cores, not threads) and HQ Player drives them all but that that badly (30% +/-)... and one thing to consider is self contained liquid cooling. Works good and quitter. I was able to un-hook some extra case fans. My machine has 8 cores that run at 3.6 GHz but can spin up (Turbo) to 4.9. HQ Player is not bother what so ever for it. The machine does nothing but Roon (core only not the full GUI) and HQ Player. I also have a Wyred 4 Sound Recovery in line to re-clock the USB signal which does what it is supposed to do.

Some HQ Player filters may required a faster machine so I would think this is why Jussi recommend a 5 GHz processor.

BTW- the machine does also work wonderful not up-sampling, DSD files are nice, especially DSD256 and DSD512, or using Roon up-sampling which is not as hard on the processors. However I also feel that HQ Player does sound just a little bit better (I actually compared them the other day).
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If you are using that machine directly connected to the DAC (even with W4S Recovery in between) with that SMPS ATX power supply, no matter how Gold or Platinum or Titanium it is, you are loosing quiet a bit on the SQ with T+A. If I were in your shoes, I would seriously consider investing either in a server/streamer solution if you want to continue using the same PC as you have now or invest in a fully custom built with linear power supply. Most using the T+A employ the former solution with various streamer available in the market and Hqp NAA is free.
 
OK, I can sort of understand about the linear power supply, although not sure how that would truly improve the server. I understand the theory behind a server/streamer but in actuality I would be surprised if it would improve much. All of my digital music is stored locally on the PC/Server (2x M.2 drives for all DSD files, and 2x SSD secondary drives handling FLAC downloads and CD rips) and nothing is being streamed across the network. I could understand the linear power supply but changing out the computer for another streamer device would sort of defeat the purpose. Especially when you consider that a Windows PC is required to achieve Native DSD512 and is also required for the T+A.
 
You sort of missed the entire point :rolleyes:

The suggestion was not to change out the computer for another streamer but to add the streamer and use Hqp NAA. Jussi develops and listen exactly in this configuration. It really doesn't matter if your music is stored locally or anywhere else. The noise that gets generated by the computer you are using is far more detrimental than words can express. There is a reason why manufacturers has been building SOTA servers and streamers instead of supplying a PC/computer and sticking a logo on it. I have been there several years ago :)
 
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