Record cleaning fluid

iamhifi said:
I compare prices of the enzime cleaners, AIVS No. 15 32 Ounce Flip Spout Bottle is $45.00, similar enzime 32 oz MOFI 32 oz is 29.00, the ultra pure water as 2nd step is the same price 19.99 in both but drops $2 each at Mofi if you buy 4.
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Bare in mind that the Mo-Fi is a different formulation than the AVIS stuff. The Mo-Fi is not as powerful, but I encourage you to try it for yourself and see how it works for you. If it works well stick with it. Don't worry about all that Pure Water stuff. Store bought distilled water is just as good 90% of the time.
 
I've cleaned almost 1000 LP's using the AIVS #15 for the wash cycle and the AIVS Ultra Pure Water as the rinse agent with my VPI 17 RCM. This combo works beautifully. I generally get 100-120 LP's clean (both sides) with a 32oz bottle of #15 and 32oz bottle of the Ultra Pure Water.

Some LP's do require a second cleaning to get them their best, but only for the most filthy of the filthy ones.

In addition, you can be assured that the AIVS products are backed by a good guy (Jim Pendleton of Osage Audio).

Mike
 
MikeCh said:
I've cleaned almost 1000 LP's using the AIVS #15 for the wash cycle and the AIVS Ultra Pure Water as the rinse agent with my VPI 17 RCM. This combo works beautifully. I generally get 100-120 LP's clean (both sides) with a 32oz bottle of #15 and 32oz bottle of the Ultra Pure Water.

Some LP's do require a second cleaning to get them their best, but only for the most filthy of the filthy ones.

In addition, you can be assured that the AIVS products are backed by a good guy (Jim Pendleton of Osage Audio).

Mike
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I also find that #15 with rinse followed by the 3-step with rinse works well too. 10-4 on AIVS product and I won't use anything else and I've tried a number of products.
 
I just tried the Tergitol 15-S3 and 15-S9 mixture recommended by the Canadian National Library. Impressive results at the least. Dead guiet, no residue on the stylus and cheap. I like the AIVS stuff as I use all 4 steps, but this takes 1/4 the time and seems even better. 2.5 mls of each in a liter of Aquafina and 2 rinses.
 
Wntrmute2 said:
I just tried the Tergito 15-S3 and 15-S9 mixture recommended by the Canadian National Library. Impressive results at the least. Dead guiet, no residue on the stylus and cheap. I like the AIVS stuff as I use all 4 steps, but this takes 1/4 the time and seems even better. 2.5 mls of each in a liter of Aquafina and 2 rinses.
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Did you hear any sonic difference between the two RCFs? You should.
 
^
I don't think I hear a difference except the Tergitol ones seem even cleaner and quieter sounding. I am of the belief that a clean record is a clean record and efficiency is the major difference. What is your experience? Do you hear a difference between fluids?
 
Wntrmute2 said:
^
I don't think I hear a difference except the Tergitol ones seem even cleaner and quieter sounding. I am of the belief that a clean record is a clean record and efficiency is the major difference. What is your experience? Do you hear a difference between fluids?
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I've written about the subject for years. :) The first time was back in 1990 for Sounds Like.... magazine. From Analog Planet:

As Myles Astor has demonstrated (in his article 'Record Cleaning Fluids,' Sounds Like #8, May 1990. This is the finest article to date on the subject of record cleaning fluid chemistry and its sonic consequences), groove wall interactions occur on a molecular level, and like it or not, any and every cleaning fluid will leave some amount of itself behind. In order to keep residues to a minimum, the cleaning solution used in each step must dissolve the one used previously. This minimizes or prevents audible cleaning fluid residue signatures such as low level 'whoosh' and high pitched hiss.. These surfactants are very hard to completely remove even with multiple washes. And getting the last vestiges of the fluid off the LP is extremely difficult.

The Most Comprehensive Record Cleaning Article Ever! | Analog Planet (good stuff here too!)

Not sure where my copy of the magazine is but will try and see if can find it over the next week and maybe post.

The real issue is that it really takes multiple washes to remove many of these detergents. Couple that with the fact that the laws of hydrodynamics work against us eg. as the amount of water on the record decreases, the surface tension increases. So it's very difficult to remove the last vestiges of water and/or detergent/chemicals (that's where the higher vacuum RCMs have a distinct advantage and the difference is audible!). So whatever one does, it's important to follow cleaning with at least one water rinse using a different brush so don't cross contaminate the record.
 
I as aware of those statements, I wasn't aware of your writing about it though. Those of us trying to clean records at all must use something though. Well i guess the KL audio ultrasonic machine eliminates that. I have incorporated 2 rinses with different brushes as an attempt to dilute whatever the last solution is down to a reasonably low level. Any fluid will have the sonic signature problem it appears from the information. I seem to remember Fremer's test of a handful of solutions that he didn't hear a difference but some were easier than others to use.
 
The best I played with before I gave my VPI away was the AVIS # 15 and MOFI enzymatic cleaning fluids. All with an ultra pure water rinse.
 
I've stayed with both L' Art du Son and Record Time, but as I've been using a ClearAudio Smart Matrix, these proved to be obvious choices.
 
Wntrmute2 said:
^
I don't think I hear a difference except the Tergitol ones seem even cleaner and quieter sounding. I am of the belief that a clean record is a clean record and efficiency is the major difference. What is your experience? Do you hear a difference between fluids?
Click to expand...

The thing with Tergitol is this: It is a detergent and very effective in cleaning records, no doubt about it, but.....it's not easy to get and just about as expensive as top cleaners like AIVS, maybe a bit more, I have not priced lately. It's also not for the average consumer, you have to know how to use it and it's dangers. The best thing is that you need a well ventilated area and gloves. You do not want this stuff on your skin for very long and you sure do not want to be breathing it.
Another point is that I would NOT recommend Tergitol to be used in any RCM save a Spin Clean, perhaps. The Tergitol could cause damage to RCM vacuums and the like.
 
Myles B. Astor said:
I've written about the subject for years. :) The first time was back in 1990 for Sounds Like.... magazine. From Analog Planet:

As Myles Astor has demonstrated (in his article 'Record Cleaning Fluids,' Sounds Like #8, May 1990. This is the finest article to date on the subject of record cleaning fluid chemistry and its sonic consequences), groove wall interactions occur on a molecular level, and like it or not, any and every cleaning fluid will leave some amount of itself behind. In order to keep residues to a minimum, the cleaning solution used in each step must dissolve the one used previously. This minimizes or prevents audible cleaning fluid residue signatures such as low level 'whoosh' and high pitched hiss.. These surfactants are very hard to completely remove even with multiple washes. And getting the last vestiges of the fluid off the LP is extremely difficult.

The Most Comprehensive Record Cleaning Article Ever! | Analog Planet (good stuff here too!)

Not sure where my copy of the magazine is but will try and see if can find it over the next week and maybe post.

The real issue is that it really takes multiple washes to remove many of these detergents. Couple that with the fact that the laws of hydrodynamics work against us eg. as the amount of water on the record decreases, the surface tension increases. So it's very difficult to remove the last vestiges of water and/or detergent/chemicals (that's where the higher vacuum RCMs have a distinct advantage and the difference is audible!). So whatever one does, it's important to follow cleaning with at least one water rinse using a different brush so don't cross contaminate the record.
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Yes, always use a separate brush for each step be it each AIVS fluid, MoFi, rinse, etc.
I go one step further myself. I have a VPI 16.5 and I use two vacuum tubes, one for cleaners and one for rinse only.
I have not tried the MoFi enzyme cleaners, but really no need to now that I use AIVS. One I have tried and would not recommend is Phoenix. Having tired it various ways I call it one of the worst fluids out there. It leaves behind a residue you can almost see! It also has a short shelf life. It will crystallize on you! Imagine that on your records! It is also next to impossible to rinse completely off, takes no less than 4 to 5 rinse cycles and then you still wonder.

I use different combos of AIVS depending on the record. Some records only require the One Step, some require the 3-step (I use the super cleaner version, but the archivist version is just as good, it's all personal preference). In my experience some records require the #15 followed by the 3-step (assume rinses of course). I have not had a lot of satisfying success in using the #15 followed by a rinse. I usually use the #15 followed by either a rinse and #6 (One-step) or #15 followed by rinse and 3-step and rinse or #15 followed by rinse then home brew, rinse and #6.
The thing with AIVS is that each cleaner is designed to address different contaminates in a sense and each one is of different strength.

I've been told that you do not have to rinse after AIVS #6 One step or the MoFi Super Record wash. I'm on the fence on whether to rinse those or not and usually error on the side of rinsing (meaning I do rinse).
 
MusicDirector said:
The thing with Tergitol is this: It is a detergent and very effective in cleaning records, no doubt about it, but.....it's not easy to get and just about as expensive as top cleaners like AIVS, maybe a bit more, I have not priced lately. It's also not for the average consumer, you have to know how to use it and it's dangers. The best thing is that you need a well ventilated area and gloves. You do not want this stuff on your skin for very long and you sure do not want to be breathing it.
Another point is that I would NOT recommend Tergitol to be used in any RCM save a Spin Clean, perhaps. The Tergitol could cause damage to RCM vacuums and the like.
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As far as price goes, I believe you are way off base. The two types of Tergitol cost about $25.00 each for 250 mls. Works out to ten cents per ml. Each liter of water at less than $2.00/liter for Aquafina. (a Fremer recommendation). Each liter requires 5 mls of the 2 concentrated total. Around $2.50 for a liter of record cleaning fluid. Two rinses follow no mater which fluid I use so that cost is the same. Cheap IMHO but the safety issue does merit additional research. The Canadian website stated that no MSDS is needed as the concentration is below 1%.
 
Wntrmute2 said:
As far as price goes, I believe you are way off base. The two types of Tergitol cost about $25.00 each for 250 mls. Works out to ten cents per ml. Each liter of water at less than $2.00/liter for Aquafina. (a Fremer recommendation). Each liter requires 5 mls of the 2 concentrated total. Around $2.50 for a liter of record cleaning fluid. Two rinses follow no mater which fluid I use so that cost is the same. Cheap IMHO but the safety issue does merit additional research. The Canadian website stated that no MSDS is needed as the concentration is below 1%.
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Wntrmute2 - welcome to AS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Kt77 said:
I've stayed with both L' Art du Son and Record Time, but as I've been using a ClearAudio Smart Matrix, these proved to be obvious choices.
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How so are these cleaners "obvious choices" in concert with the CA Smart Matrix?
 
Wntrmute2 said:
As far as price goes, I believe you are way off base. The two types of Tergitol cost about $25.00 each for 250 mls. Works out to ten cents per ml. Each liter of water at less than $2.00/liter for Aquafina. (a Fremer recommendation). Each liter requires 5 mls of the 2 concentrated total. Around $2.50 for a liter of record cleaning fluid. Two rinses follow no mater which fluid I use so that cost is the same. Cheap IMHO but the safety issue does merit additional research. The Canadian website stated that no MSDS is needed as the concentration is below 1%.
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I stand corrected on price. It used to be a bit higher years ago. That makes it cheaper than the stuff I use, but not nearly as safe.
 
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