Pass XS Phonostage

[audioarcher]

As an XP25 owner, I can only hope that some of the technology from the XS pre and XS phono finds its way to the next generation of XP products like the XS amp technology filtered down to the .8 series.

I heard the XS Phono in a direct comparison to the XP30. The XS was clearly better, but it seemed difficult to justify the price difference for the gain in performance.

Hi Peter, Can you expand on what the differences were between the XS and XP30 please? Also do you know what technology is different between the two? I'm just curious.

 

[Alpinist]

They do have cheaper phono stages in their line up. I understand everyone wants the best effort of the audio company they like, and it is disappointing to not be able to afford it right away. You can always pick it up used latter or ask for a good deal from your dealer.

It would have to sound quite amazing to be truly worth $45k in my book.

That's a good point, Sean. Eventually, there will be demo units available at a reduced price. It would have to be extremely amazing...LOL.

Ken

 

[audioarcher]

The XS Phono will be 5X the price of the XP-25, the next one down in their line. This image looks like it may be a prototype for CES. Remember how the XS Pre from CES a couple of years ago looked different than the current production model.

Without seeing the insides it is hard to understand where the money goes. The prototype case work is nothing special. I would expect CNC billet aluminum and/or copper for that price. Something along the line of Dan D'agostino's designs.

 

[PeterA]

Hi Peter, Can you expand on what the differences were between the XS and XP30 please? Also do you know what technology is different between the two? I'm just curious.

Sure. The XS Pre was more transparent and seemed to be extremely tonally neutral. The XP30 was slightly warmer and richer sounding. The XS was extremely dynamic, clean, and detailed sounding, especially micro dynamics while the XP30 was just slightly veiled.

Interestingly, I had this same friend's XP30 in my system and compared it to my XP20 for about a week. I preferred the XP30 because of its warmer/richer sound and it extracted a bit more detail than the XP20 does, however, after hearing the XS pre's neutral tonal balance, that reminded me more of my my system with the XP20.

With all of this in mind, I now lean slightly toward a more tonally neutral presentation. I loved the XS Pre in my friend's system, however, at more than twice the price of the XP30, there is the question of value. As one goes up the line, the more expensive units are clearly better, but diminishing returns definitely kick in.

I also directly compared the XA160.5 to the XA16.8 in this same friend's system and found the differences very similar to the XP30 vs the XS Pre. I wrote a fairly lengthy comparison on WBF and perhaps Audioshark which you could probably find by searching the Pass .8 threads.

 

[Mike]

Thanks Peter. I agree with your observations.


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[Alpinist]

Sure. The XS Pre was more transparent and seemed to be extremely tonally neutral. The XP30 was slightly warmer and richer sounding. The XS was extremely dynamic, clean, and detailed sounding, especially micro dynamics while the XP30 was just slightly veiled.

Interestingly, I had this same friend's XP30 in my system and compared it to my XP20 for about a week. I preferred the XP30 because of its warmer/richer sound and it extracted a bit more detail than the XP20 does, however, after hearing the XS pre's neutral tonal balance, that reminded me more of my my system with the XP20.

With all of this in mind, I now lean slightly toward a more tonally neutral presentation. I loved the XS Pre in my friend's system, however, at more than twice the price of the XP30, there is the question of value. As one goes up the line, the more expensive units are clearly better, but diminishing returns definitely kick in.

I also directly compared the XA160.5 to the XA16.8 in this same friend's system and found the differences very similar to the XP30 vs the XS Pre. I wrote a fairly lengthy comparison on WBF and perhaps Audioshark which you could probably find by searching the Pass .8 threads.

Peter,

Thanks for that comparison. I owned the XP-30 for over a year and totally agree with your observations about it. It's informative to read how the XS Pre compares to the XP-30 as I have never had the opportunity to audition it.

Best,
Ken

 

[audioarcher]

Thanks Peter.

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

Thanks for that comparison. I owned the XP-30 for over a year and totally agree with your observations about it. It's informative to read how the XS Pre compares to the XP-30 as I have never had the opportunity to audition it.

Best,
Ken

I was really struck by how "clean" the XS pre sounded. I recently had this same observation after hearing the incredible Magico M Project (in an all-Pass system, BTW). I suppose one's system has to be up to a very high level of transparency and resolution to appreciate the differences, and resulting value, between the XS Pre and XP-30.

As I learn more about audio reproduction and the sound of live classical music, I am tending to better appreciate, value, and ultimately prefer, highly resolving, highly transparent, and neutral tonal balanced components and systems. As long as the sound does not cause fatigue, is not thin, or bleached, and does not sound "clinical", these attributes remind me more of the "clarity" that I hear from live, unamplified music. It the recording is good, this type of system can be very natural/real sounding.

The XS Pre and M Project are two components, IME, that achieve this reference level of resolution, transparency and tonal balance.

It will be interesting to see how the XS Phono performs.

Does anyone know if it was on static display at CES, or was it being demoed?

 

[FlexibleAudio]

This pricing makes me question whether Nelson has fully digested the impact of the dollar's strength verses the eastern rim currencies over the last year or so. As we all know, much of the uber high-end has been getting shipped over there for years but going forward US goods are going to be very pricey for Asia (excluding China). The Japanese yen alone is off over 50%!

 

[Mike]

This pricing makes me question whether Nelson has fully digested the impact of the dollar's strength verses the eastern rim currencies over the last year or so. As we all know, much of the uber high-end has been getting shipped over there for years but going forward US goods are going to be very pricey for Asia (excluding China). The Japanese yen alone is off over 50%!

OK, let's take a step back for a second. I spoke with Nelson today and we discussed the XS Phono. First off, nobody sits around and just picks what the MSRP should be out of thin air. Nelson explained that the price is a simple multiple of cost - period. In this particular case, Wayne Colburn and the entire Pass team were given a blank check for parts - and many of those parts are very pricey. For example, Wayne chose to duplicate the gain stage circuits to avoid switching at low level inputs.

Nelson explained that when you look inside and count and price the parts, you will completely understand how the MSRP was derived.

So I think suggesting that the development of the XS Phono is taking a long time because Pass is trying to justify a price tag, is just cynical with no basis. Nelson explained to me that the delay has been because they want it to be perfect - its their flagship phonostage after all.

Also, let's not forget who has given more (for free) to the DIY'ers and Audio community than Nelson Pass. I don't see many other leaders of the top audio companies standing up and giving detailed lectures and educational seminars for all to see.

So, at the end of the day, the XS Phono is a flagship product from a world class company.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

OK, let's take a step back for a second. I spoke with Nelson today and we discussed the XS Phono. First off, nobody sits around and just picks what the MSRP should be out of thin air. Nelson explained that the price is a simple multiple of cost - period. In this particular case, Wayne Colburn and the entire Pass team were given a blank check for parts - and many of those parts are very pricey. For example, Wayne chose to duplicate the gain stage circuits to avoid switching at low level inputs.

Nelson explained that when you look inside and count and price the parts, you will completely understand how the MSRP was derived.

So I think suggesting that the development of the XS Phono is taking a long time because Pass is trying to justify a price tag, is just cynical with no basis. Nelson explained to me that the delay has been because they want it to be perfect - its their flagship phonostage after all.

Also, let's not forget who has given more (for free) to the DIY'ers and Audio community than Nelson Pass. I don't see many other leaders of the top audio companies standing up and giving detailed lectures and educational seminars for all to see.

So, at the end of the day, the XS Phono is a flagship product from a world class company.

Mike, I hope you realize those comments didn't come from me. :hi:

I am just saying 45,000 US dollars two years ago was 3.5 million yen; today it is 5.4 million yen. A lot of exporters who have enjoyed great pricing inelasticity due to the weaker US dollar a couple of years ago are finding they can't price like they used to because thats a 54% bump just on currency!

 

[Mike]

Mike, I hope you realize those comments didn't come from me. :hi:

I am just saying 45,000 US dollars two years ago was 3.5 million yen; today it is 5.4 million yen. A lot of exporters who have enjoyed great pricing inelasticity due to the weaker US dollar a couple of years ago are finding they can't price like they used to because thats a 54% bump just on currency!

Absolutely. [emoji106]


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[Garth]

OK, let's take a step back for a second. I spoke with Nelson today and we discussed the XS Phono. First off, nobody sits around and just picks what the MSRP should be out of thin air. Nelson explained that the price is a simple multiple of cost - period. In this particular case, Wayne Colburn and the entire Pass team were given a blank check for parts - and many of those parts are very pricey. For example, Wayne chose to duplicate the gain stage circuits to avoid switching at low level inputs.

Nelson explained that when you look inside and count and price the parts, you will completely understand how the MSRP was derived.

So I think suggesting that the development of the XS Phono is taking a long time because Pass is trying to justify a price tag, is just cynical with no basis. Nelson explained to me that the delay has been because they want it to be perfect - its their flagship phonostage after all.

Also, let's not forget who has given more (for free) to the DIY'ers and Audio community than Nelson Pass. I don't see many other leaders of the top audio companies standing up and giving detailed lectures and educational seminars for all to see.

So, at the end of the day, the XS Phono is a flagship product from a world class company.

That was a very good post .

Some day someone will build a great sounding piece of gear that costs so much no one buys it. No one has been able to do it yet. Lord knows some have tried very hard.
All I have ever heard about Nelson Pass and his designs have been Positive. The Dollar will follow its own path as will prices.
It would be great to try this phono some day.

 

[PeterA]

That was a very good post .

Some day someone will build a great sounding piece of gear that costs so much no one buys it. No one has been able to do it yet. Lord knows some have tried very hard.
All I have ever heard about Nelson Pass and his designs have been Positive. The Dollar will follow its own path as will prices.
It would be great to try this phono some day.

That is an interesting comment. I tried to come up with an example and have two contenders. One is a German one-off turntable for $650,000. It is very complicated and has all of the cartridge alignment aids built in with video, lighting, USB camera. It is massive and integrated with a stand. The linear tracking arm is motorized and moves along a rail. The designer built it for himself as a design exercise and prototype and then added up the hours and parts and assigned a price to his creation. I think I read that he agreed to build up to five tables but I don't think anyone has ordered one.

Another example could be the ONEDORF? gold turntable for $150K. I think there is only one sample which Fremer reviewed and it has been at shows.

I can't comment on the sound of either one, so they may not disprove your thesis because they are either not that great sounding or they are not too expensive. Or, perhaps, they are both.

 

[BlueFox]

As I learn more about audio reproduction and the sound of live classical music, I am tending to better appreciate, value, and ultimately prefer, highly resolving, highly transparent, and neutral tonal balanced components and systems. As long as the sound does not cause fatigue, is not thin, or bleached, and does not sound "clinical", these attributes remind me more of the "clarity" that I hear from live, unamplified music. It the recording is good, this type of system can be very natural/real sounding.

Interesting point. As I have developed a love for classical, specifically string quartet, music over the last 7 years, my stereo has undergone massive upgrades to get better and better sound. While I still appreciate the impact of loud rock, I love listening to the low volume detail in string quartets.

 

[Garth]

That is an interesting comment. I tried to come up with an example and have two contenders. One is a German one-off turntable for $650,000. It is very complicated and has all of the cartridge alignment aids built in with video, lighting, USB camera. It is massive and integrated with a stand. The linear tracking arm is motorized and moves along a rail. The designer built it for himself as a design exercise and prototype and then added up the hours and parts and assigned a price to his creation. I think I read that he agreed to build up to five tables but I don't think anyone has ordered one.

Another example could be the ONEDORF? gold turntable for $150K. I think there is only one sample which Fremer reviewed and it has been at shows.

I can't comment on the sound of either one, so they may not disprove your thesis because they are either not that great sounding or they are not too expensive. Or, perhaps, they are both.

I heard the Onedorf at RMAF a few years back it is a good table I am no reviewer and I was not familiar with any of the gear in the system it was played on. So it was hard to form any idea how good it is, Fremer liked it and he has a good ear. I thought after the review he did sell one or two but you may well be right.
The German table I have never heard .

At RMAF sales people were calling 10,000 dollar gear a bargain one even referred to 10,000 as entry level . The 650,000 table may sell yet who knows.

Crazy world but not boring

 

[Frank750]

So I think suggesting that the development of the XS Phono is taking a long time because Pass is trying to justify a price tag, is just cynical with no basis. Nelson explained to me that the delay has been because they want it to be perfect - its their flagship phonostage

Not what I said. This is what I said-

"I think it has taken so long to get the Xs Phono out because they're having a problem making a product that can justify the price point they want to charge."

I'm done. Justify all you want. $45K is a great price.

 

[bzr]

Monoblocks, Preamp, and Phonostage........nearly 150k !!! This hobby is becoming a run-away train.

Let's not forget, the product has been a pain staking effort for several years now. Trust me, I've been asking about this product for months and was told about the number of people and hours that has gone into it. It still isn't "perfect" and won't be ready until May or so.


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Mike,

Good idea. Nelson and his team are very open to constructive feedback. There is a pricing sweet spot even in the luxury audio market. IMO, they are well above it. Best to let them know at $45K, some audiophiles will be looking elsewhere for a reference phonostage.

Best,
Ken

Really? You guys are going to tell Nelson Pass how he should price his reference phono stage based on what the market as you know it will bear? Some people will buy it just because it is $45k. Some other people will wish it cost even more in order to drive up the exclusivity factor. I honestly think there is no upper limit on prices for audio gear at the top tier of performance and looks. These were never intended to be mass market pieces sold at mass market prices.

I think we all need to go back to the basics & tune with tubes! More & more I am questioning what I am buying!

 

[FlexibleAudio]

I think we all need to go back to the basics & tune with tubes! More & more I am questioning what I am buying!

Or stop trying to tune with $$$ in the chain where a particular piece of gear is tuned to sound unique and thereby command big bucks for its singularity and, instead, remove the stigma of tone controls and go back to how we did it in the 70's:

I wonder why Dan D. put good old fashion bass and treble controls on his pre???? Of course that would take a lot of the fun out of what we do. :happy: :lol:

 

[Myles B. Astor]

Way too much generalizations and painting with broad brush strokes. Who are all these so called audiophiles tuning their systems? Outside of a few, most audiophiles value neutrality and faitfullness to the recording. We've never been in a period where the equipment has been striving for neutrality unlike the etched sound of the '80s and '90s.