New speakers: Magico M3 v Rockport Cygnus v YG Sonja 2.2 v Gryphon Pantheon

[AJR]

Great report, thanks. Seems like you prefer your Lansche

 

[AJR]

I looked into Lansche, with Nicoludio’s comment, and it seems your active speaker range is no more?

 

[Mr Peabody]

Just curious what the rest of the system was with the Vimberg?

So AJR, I gave the Vimberg Mino a listen.

- pros: very good resolution, had a lots of bass, very good imaging, they love all the audiophile stuff: Stimela drum layers, Diana Krall etc.
- cons: I found that the treble sticked out even of the center image quite a bit, bass was there in abundance but I felt it was a bit bloated (three small bass drivers tuned to do the whole shebang resulted in a bit strained sound), rock was missing cohones a bit, old jazz sounded like old jazz (bad recordings)

I would say they are excellent for analyzing stuff, but might not be idea for listening to all varieties of music. I will try to audition the larger Tondas in due course.

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[Kuoppis]

I looked into Lansche, with Nicoludio’s comment, and it seems your active speaker range is no more?

Yes and no. The semi-actives I have Lansche does not offer anymore, which is a pity. But of course there’s a cost to it.

However, now he offer his own external bass amps for the low-end to take care of the bi-amping.


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[Kuoppis]

Just curious what the rest of the system was with the Vimberg?

I don’t remember all the components, as I was not familiar with all the manufacturers. But the DAC was a Rockna Lightwave. Quite interesting ladder DAC.


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[AJR]

Ah. Ok. But I (assume) that the Lansche give you something more than your S3s and my assumption is bass?

 

[AJR]

It can’t be the mids?!

 

[Kuoppis]

Ah. Ok. But I (assume) that the Lansche give you something more than your S3s and my assumption is bass?

Where the Lansche 4.2 excels compared to the Magico S3 mk2s:
- the highs - the Corona tweeter is special. Extreme resolution (up to 150 kHz) w/o any harshness or sticking out. They produce really fast and airy highs.
- the bass - 4x 10” aluminum woofers powered by 2x 1200W, and reaching down to 15 Hz leaves little to desire in the low-end department.
- bi-amping - while the Soulution could drive everything without any problem, being relieved of the bass duties removes that impedance difference between the bass and mid/ high drivers, and gives the amp to operate more effortlessly (as a matter of fact also positive impact on the mids).


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[Dizzie]

Where the Lansche 4.2 excels compared to the Magico S3 mk2s:
- the highs - the Corona tweeter is special. Extreme resolution (up to 150 kHz) w/o any harshness or sticking out. They produce really fast and airy highs.
- the bass - 4x 10” aluminum woofers powered by 2x 1200W, and reaching down to 15 Hz leaves little to desire in the low-end department.
- bi-amping - while the Soulution could drive everything without any problem, being relieved of the bass duties removes that impedance difference between the bass and mid/ high drivers, and gives the amp to operate more effortlessly (as a matter of fact also positive impact on the mids).


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What is the crossover point for the plasma tweeter?

 

[Kuoppis]

What is the crossover point for the plasma tweeter?

I don’t remember, but I’m sure it’s somewhere in the thread I posted about the Lansches when I bought them.

The Corona freq. range is 1.5 kHz - 150 kHz. Both bass and treble crossover points are also adjustable based on your preferences.


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[AJR]

Where the Lansche 4.2 excels compared to the Magico S3 mk2s:
- the highs - the Corona tweeter is special. Extreme resolution (up to 150 kHz) w/o any harshness or sticking out. They produce really fast and airy highs.
- the bass - 4x 10” aluminum woofers powered by 2x 1200W, and reaching down to 15 Hz leaves little to desire in the low-end department.
- bi-amping - while the Soulution could drive everything without any problem, being relieved of the bass duties removes that impedance difference between the bass and mid/ high drivers, and gives the amp to operate more effortlessly (as a matter of fact also positive impact on the mids).


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You sold me on the bass but with no compromise on the higher frequencies

 

[LVB]

You sold me on the bass but with no compromise on the higher frequencies

You should read some of the designer criticism of powered bass on TAS latest Loudspeaker Designer Roundtable. It is not a free lunch, far from it.

 

[Kuoppis]

You should read some of the designer criticism of powered bass on TAS latest Loudspeaker Designer Roundtable. It is not a free lunch, far from it.

This is interesting, what does the “designer criticism” say?

I mean, there are lots of “designers” who swear by it. Technically it is obvious, that having a single amp driving all drivers puts a strain on the amp. This is, as they have to bridge huge impedance differences between the drivers. Of course amps can do it, it’s just associated with loss in dynamics and fidelity.


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[LVB]

This is interesting, what does the “designer criticism” say?

I mean, there are lots of “designers” who swear by it. Technically it is obvious, that having a single amp driving all drivers puts a strain on the amp. This is, as they have to bridge huge impedance differences between the drivers. Of course amps can do it, it’s just associated with loss in dynamics and fidelity.


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It’s about the steep delay introduce to the bass section only. It makes good phase integration between the bass and the rest of the speakers impossible.

 

[Kuoppis]

It’s about the steep delay introduce to the bass section only. It makes good phase integration between the bass and the rest of the speakers impossible.

Don’t understand what you mean. Could you please elaborate?


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[LVB]

Don’t understand what you mean. Could you please elaborate?


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Michael Børresen:
“If you go DSP, you must go fully DSP, because you have a 12–14mS delay through the DSP processor, so using DSP for bass and bass room-adaption in a passive speaker system is for me out of the question.”

BTW, analog active circuitry also introduces delay, perhaps not as bad, but still a compromise. So you either do fully active or fully passive. No hybrid.

 

[Kuoppis]

Michael Børresen:
“If you go DSP, you must go fully DSP, because you have a 12–14mS delay through the DSP processor, so using DSP for bass and bass room-adaption in a passive speaker system is for me out of the question.”

BTW, analog active circuitry also introduces delay, perhaps not as bad, but still a compromise. So you either do fully active or fully passive. No hybrid.

Firstly, Michael Borresen is known to design and produce prohibitively expensive speakers with tremendous bass issues. Pretty much the entire Raidho range was a bass disaster, literally impossible to control in-room. Therefore, I would not take his word for anything related to bass reproduction.

Secondly, not a first: no data, no facts, no science - just hearsay. Unfortunately, the comment is also a bit nonsensical in the sense that the Lansche speakers actually do not have any DSP. Maybe semi-knowledge here, more than understanding, quoting “designers” without a clear concept what those might be referring to. And interestingly enough, you are arguing that pretty much no sub can actually improve the sound.

Thirdly, there are, however, manufacturers producing some of the world’s best speaker systems, like e.g. the Living Voice Vox Olympian and Palladian, who demonstrate how well a powered bass can actually work. Have heard them in Munich, and they’re fantastic.


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[LVB]

Firstly, Michael Borresen is known to design and produce prohibitively expensive speakers with tremendous bass issues. Pretty much the entire Raidho range was a bass disaster, literally impossible to control in-room. Therefore, I would not take his word for anything related to bass reproduction.

Secondly, not a first: no data, no facts, no science - just hearsay. Unfortunately, the comment is also a bit nonsensical in the sense that the Lansche speakers actually do not have any DSP. Maybe semi-knowledge here, more than understanding, quoting “designers” without a clear concept what those might be referring to. And interestingly enough, you are arguing that pretty much no sub can actually improve the sound.

Thirdly, there are, however, manufacturers producing some of the world’s best speaker systems, like e.g. the Living Voice Vox Olympian and Palladian, who demonstrate how well a powered bass can actually work. Have heard them in Munich, and they’re fantastic.


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These are basic concepts, Michael Borresen did not invent any of this. If you don’t understand the concept of delay and how it relates to phase, I can’t help you.
BTW, subs are notoriously difficult to integrate, and that is precisely the reason. They do have the benefit of placement choice, which can help mitigate the issue. You do not have that in one fixed box.

 

[Kuoppis]

These are basic concepts, Michael Borresen did not invent any of this. If you don’t understand the concept of delay and how it relates to phase, I can’t help you.
BTW, subs are notoriously difficult to integrate, and that is precisely the reason. They do have the benefit of placement choice, which can help mitigate the issue. You do not have that in one fixed box.

Do understand, but don’t agree.

Also, you say analog circuitry also introduces delay, how are those different from any crossover? Then every crossover should introduce delay.

If it would be that simple, Borresen speakers would surely be perfect. Unfortunately they are far from it.

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[the professor]

Have you ever listened to systems that have an active sub integrated in them? And which ones and where? There are many out there now. It's a growing trend.

And having owned about every Raidho speaker while Michael was there. The only way I could get the bass to work in my room was because of subs counter acting his bass.

That being said. Michael designed the Raidho speakers at a low volume level. So the extra bass he used was a loudness control. And it was great -- just not the volume that people in the USA listened to them. I still to this day love his work for low volume listening - basically background music.

These are basic concepts, Michael Borresen did not invent any of this. If you don’t understand the concept of delay and how it relates to phase, I can’t help you.
BTW, subs are notoriously difficult to integrate, and that is precisely the reason. They do have the benefit of placement choice, which can help mitigate the issue. You do not have that in one fixed box.