Network switch, FMC, cable upgrades worthwhile when router can't be co-located?

Mike said:
When people are buying these items who don’t need them, that’s the problem. I have heard from so many customers with a single run from their router to their listening room and they are all in a big flap about these audiophile switches they keep hearing about. I have to keep telling them: the best switch is no switch!! That’s the little tidbit of information all these part-time experts leave out.

NONE mention: if you don’t need a switch, don’t use one and NONE mention the comparison vs the actual CD using the same DAC and
NONE mention simply running two lines from the router.

If in a worse case scenario, you can’t make another Ethernet run, then a switch is required. I would recommend the QNAP, this model or similar: https://www.qnap.com/en-us/product/qsw-1208-8c if they want a high end quality spec, quality built switch.

I’m not a fan of this forum, but in this case they are bang on the money, and they have done many similar reviews of “audiophile switches”:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...el-bonn-n8-audio-grade-ethernet-switch.12360/

At the end of the day, in many cases, this stuff gets many people lost in a quagmire of confusion. Less is more.

Again, if people are hearing big differences with switches, that’s fantastic. All the power to them. My point is simple: I need to be sure to communicate that no switch is the best switch and offer an option of running two lines from the router. That’s all I’m saying.

Again, YMMV.
Click to expand...

I agree with you 100%. There is a reason I coined the phrase "digital dingleberries" to describe all of the crap people install in their digital rigs that are not necessary in order to playback/stream digital music. There are lots of imaginary problems floating around out there in the digital world (and analog too in order to be fair) and twice as many companies making "solutions" for the pretend problems. However, there is a real need to cater to the corner of the audiophile market where people have run out of things to buy to "improve" their systems and this was and is the foundation for solutions in search of problems.
 
BlueFox said:
This thread validates keeping the hard drive directly attached to the Lumin and not use the network for music.
Click to expand...

That leaves out streaming though. That being said, streaming (Tidal, etc.) is like the buffet at The Golden Corral. Plenty to eat, but I wouldn’t call it good. Your ripped CD’s will sound better and a CD playing through the same DAC, better yet again. I would say:

CD = 10/10
Ripped CD = 8-9/10
Streaming = 7/10
 
Mike said:
That leaves out streaming though. That being said, streaming (Tidal, etc.) is like the buffet at The Golden Corral. Plenty to eat, but I wouldn’t call it good. Your ripped CD’s will sound better and a CD playing through the same DAC, better yet again. I would say:

CD = 10/10
Ripped CD = 8-9/10
Streaming = 7/10
Click to expand...


I can agree with that :peace:
 
Love or hate ASR as you like, this following quote from the Uptone review is technically correct.

“Perhaps the biggest issue with claims of audio improvement is that your DAC is so far removed from Ethernet that little you can do upstream can impact it. Ethernet has a clock but that is used for communication on the wire. Once a packet (chunk) of data arrives, it is put in memory in the operating system. At that point, it no longer has any timing information much less a clock. It is the responsibility of the application to associate timing with it. And such software notion either works, or doesn't. If it doesn't your music will stop or drop out. None of that timing has any relationship whatsoever with the clock that the DAC eventually uses to play data sent to it. It is the audio application together with the DAC (and or Operating System) which determine timing.”

What really matters is keeping any noise away from your ultra-quiet analog electronics. Lots of ways to do that in renderers, streamers or add-ons. If you use Isochronous Asynchronous USB the only clock that matters is the one in your DAC. If you are using S/PDIF or AES/EBU then the source clock jitter does matter, although many DAC designers have optimized the input circuitry to make this a second level issue. My streamer is battery operated but does use WiFi, so i’ve focused on reducing transmit power to a bare minimum and making the 5 GHz path very high impedance with ferrite chokes.
 
W9TR said:
Love or hate ASR as you like, this following quote from the Uptone review is technically correct.

“Perhaps the biggest issue with claims of audio improvement is that your DAC is so far removed from Ethernet that little you can do upstream can impact it. Ethernet has a clock but that is used for communication on the wire. Once a packet (chunk) of data arrives, it is put in memory in the operating system. At that point, it no longer has any timing information much less a clock. It is the responsibility of the application to associate timing with it. And such software notion either works, or doesn't. If it doesn't your music will stop or drop out. None of that timing has any relationship whatsoever with the clock that the DAC eventually uses to play data sent to it. It is the audio application together with the DAC (and or Operating System) which determine timing.”

What really matters is keeping any noise away from your ultra-quiet analog electronics. Lots of ways to do that in renderers, streamers or add-ons. If you use Isochronous Asynchronous USB the only clock that matters is the one in your DAC. If you are using S/PDIF or AES/EBU then the source clock jitter does matter, although many DAC designers have optimized the input circuitry to make this a second level issue. My streamer is battery operated but does use WiFi, so i’ve focused on reducing transmit power to a bare minimum and making the 5 GHz path very high impedance with ferrite chokes.
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Makes sense. That’s why I love my Aurender ACS10 + W20SE. No BS. Loads of cache memory on the W20SE. Ethernet filtering on the ACS10. And ACS10 for most of my albums sounds better than my NAS. Move my favorites to the SSD of the W20SE and bingo.

Streaming for when I’m in the mood for a buffet of new music. But if the album is good, like that classical album I was talking about the other night, I will buy it.


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Willco said:
The creators of the audiophile switches will argue that their switch is better than no switch because it filters noise and other digital gremlins that are there independent of a switch.

On whether cd's playing the same album will be better than streaming: I don't have a cd player, so I haven't done direct comparison. But I have read others say that a highly optimized streaming set up (hard drive and Qobuz/Tidal) will equal or better cd playback. (I believe Mike Lavigne came to that conclusion? Hopefully I have that right!)
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I don't know that the manufacturers of audiophile-grade switches (or FMCs) are saying that they are better than "no device". I'm in agreement with Mike that the fewer (or zero) devices in a reproduction chain are better than more devices (for the most part, in most situations).

But some folks, including me, require the functionality of a switch or FMC. For our applications, some of the new products devleoped specifically for audio use provide audible improvements over generic products sourced from the IT/networking product manufacturers. One of the reasons is that timing matters when using these devices for audio streaming, and it does not for the vast majority of networking or computing applications.
 
Mike said:
Interesting. Would you then have your modem close/in your listening room?

One other question: have you tried an Aurender ACS10? I find the dedicated network filter in the ACS10 to be excellent. Then you plug your N10 into the dedicated filter on the ACS10 via Ethernet.

I removed my GigaFoil once I got the ACS10. AND, it certainly sounds better than my NAS.
Click to expand...

Mike,

What is an Aurender ACS10?

Thanks.
 
https://aurender.com/acs10/

“The Aurender ACS10 is a device designed to reduce reliance upon the computer and other IT products to support your digital audio system.”

You can read about all it’s features on the link above. 2x Isolated LAN ports, linear PSU, etc.


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Mike said:
Interesting. Would you then have your modem close/in your listening room?

One other question: have you tried an Aurender ACS10? I find the dedicated network filter in the ACS10 to be excellent. Then you plug your N10 into the dedicated filter on the ACS10 via Ethernet.

I removed my GigaFoil once I got the ACS10. AND, it certainly sounds better than my NAS.
Click to expand...

Yes, but still out of the music room, now instead of the modem being 45’ away, it’s now about 8/9’, the coaxial RG6 spans the distance, the Belkin while a good gap doesn’t compare against all AQ Diamonds, everything off the bat sounds better. One thing I am hearing is a lot more timbre around voices and instruments, will come back to qualify.

I’m gonna let things settle a bit while I start the next painting project as there are several new things that occurred this morning, a 1.5 hour project that took 5 hours [emoji1787]


I will look at the AC10 and what it does.




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UltraFast69 said:
My efforts with switches, power supplies and grounding resulted in a sound second to none, the die hard analog guys were one over, it was clearly evident to them.

I’m am with Mike relative to less is more but in my case it was opposite.

Before my weekend painting efforts I am about to move all my digital over to a new circuit on a new sub panel we put in (thanks KingRex, more on that later) and see if better circuit cabling, a shortened run, and removing the AQ Vox SE switch that is chassis grounded will improve sound quality - I think it will or I wouldn’t try doing it.

Note: Everything is well cabled with Linear Power Supplies, ethernet cables, and isolation and created a digital front end thread on here somewhere.

Currently:

Modem > AQ Diamond > AQVox SE > Belkin 45’ > etherREGEN > AQ Diamond > Gigafoil > AQ Diamond > Aurender

Proposed:

Running coaxial in place of Belkin to move closer to Audio Room.

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Click to expand...

Ed, Have you considered running Fiber the 45' between your switches instead of coax? I've replaced my 100' of ethernet with Fiber between two Startech fmc's. I may try the Sonore Optical Module fmc's instead of the Startech also.
 
I have mostly positive experience with switches and Gigafoil. Ever since I got the MSB Discrete, I went for strictly streaming with Ethernet input on MSB and Nucleus to run Roon Core. I understand many people keep a few options, but I decided that streaming alone is enough for my listening habit and the music I listen to.

At first, I use AQ Diamond Ethernet cable from Apple AirPort Extreme to the DAC, AE powered by Teddy Pardo LPS. Although AQ Diamond + LPS make things listenable, I do notice this configuration was not as good as physically stored music played via an Aurender or Lumin (I have had both at some point but at different times).

Then Gigafoil came along, which was inserted between AE and the DAC. And I remember how gobsmacked I felt when Gigafoil was first inserted. That was an eye opener. I felt this was at minimum on par with playing music off Aurender.

After this, Keces came along, power both Gigafoil and Nucleus with special ordered DC cables. That also brought up the performance considerably.

At one point, I also tried AQVox SE (replacing AE), but ultimately I decided to return as I felt the improvement was not worth $1,800. Now I have EtherREGEN in the place of AE and I think it’s a no brainer for the improvement it brings. It costs 1/3rd of AQVox and performs better in my system (YMMV, I do know many people swear by AQVox). However, this improvement is not as big as when Gigafoil was inserted. This time it’s mainly just more refinement.

Now the latest addition is Shunyata Sigma Ethernet and the system is configured as below. It brings another level of refinement.

Modem > AQ Vodka > EtherREGEN > AQ Diamond > Gigafoil > Sigma Ethernet > MSB Discrete

It goes without saying I didn’t know what I got myself into when I initially decided to go strictly steaming (at the time, things like Gigafoil, EtherREGEN or SOtM sNH-10G weren’t even available in the market yet). The above configuration is probably at the upper ceiling of what I’d ever allow myself to get tangled with. But looking back, no regrets either because the quality I now have with streaming and the ability to get 99.9% of music at the tip of a finger is well worth it for me. As always YMMV.
 
Mike said:
That leaves out streaming though. That being said, streaming (Tidal, etc.) is like the buffet at The Golden Corral. Plenty to eat, but I wouldn’t call it good. Your ripped CD’s will sound better and a CD playing through the same DAC, better yet again. I would say:

CD = 10/10
Ripped CD = 8-9/10
Streaming = 7/10
Click to expand...

I have to quibble and nitpick here. Sorry. :)

The only way a CD player will sound better than the Lumin X1 is if the CD player has a better DAC. While I am sure some do, I suspect the Lumin DAC beats most CD players.
 
Bud

I suspect he's talking about using the CD player as a transport only with the possible exception of the TOTL Luxman, Gryphon or T+A units.
 
Jack said:
Bud

I suspect he's talking about using the CD player as a transport only with the possible exception of the TOTL Luxman, Gryphon or T+A units.
Click to expand...

If so then I don’t think that is much of a comparison. Why buy a Lumin X1 to just output digital files to a DAC. A cheap CD player will do the same thing.
 
Mike said:
....
I would say:

CD = 10/10
Ripped CD = 8-9/10
Streaming = 7/10
Click to expand...

In my experience, I would reverse that.

1. Streaming/ripped
2. CD players

A dedicated DAC does a much better job than a CD player with a built-in DAC.

IME, a streamed/ripped file actually sounds better than a CD because I can do upsampling/converting and apply filtering that I cannot do when using a CD Player or a transport.
 
I was speaking of a CD player with digital inputs or something like a great DAC + Transport. That’s the only way to compare apples to apples.


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nicoff said:
In my experience, I would reverse that.

1. Streaming/ripped
2. CD players

A dedicated DAC does a much better job than a CD player with a built-in DAC.

IME, a streamed/ripped file actually sounds better than a CD because I can do upsampling/converting and apply filtering that I cannot do when using a CD Player or a transport.
Click to expand...

Different, not better IMO. Upsampled/filters is not native. It can sound different. But when you compare 16/44 ripped CD to the CD, using the same DAC, you can hear the superiority of the CD, but only slight. The big improvement comes with the CD Vs Streaming.

No doubt the ripped CD’s/SACD’s provide amazing convenience. That’s what I do with all mine!


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