NAS Drives

I'm considering the Synology 1513+ (diskless) and getting those very drives you mentioned Mike!

Cool. You've heard how quiet my NAS is. The only thing I would suggest is looking at a NAS that is capable of streaming DSD. Synology does not - as of right now. I heard Buffalo has a new one that does and MAYBE Netgear do and maybe some others??
 
I'm sure many are aware of this, but just in case.....if you decide that you are going the NAS route, I would recommend you go for the Western Digital Red NAS Drives (or similar). These drives are designed and tested to operate within the demands of a NAS - 24/7 operation.

http://www.amazon.com/WD-Red-NAS-Ha...034&sr=1-1&keywords=Western+digital+NAS+drive
A big +1.

Same drives I just upgraded to on one of my Synology's. No issues for the past 4-6 months. Highly recommended.
 
Cool. You've heard how quiet my NAS is. The only thing I would suggest is looking at a NAS that is capable of streaming DSD. Synology does not - as of right now. I heard Buffalo has a new one that does and MAYBE Netgear do and maybe some others??

I had no idea that there was an issue with this! What specification do you look for to be able to tell if a NAS will stream DSD? The xx13 series Synology units are brand new, too. :(
 
Ah - it's a DLNA thing. I have to find out how the Bryston BDP-2 handles (or will handle) DSD files. I think it relies on DSD over PCM.
 
Ah - it's a DLNA thing. I have to find out how the Bryston BDP-2 handles (or will handle) DSD files. I think it relies on DSD over PCM.

PCM conversion of DSD files is less than ideal.

True that! Fortunately, DoP (DSD over PCM) isn't PCM conversion. :) Per ted_b at computeraudiophile: DoP standard means that a 24/176k PCM signal carries the native DSD...but it's still native DSD, not converted.
 
True that! Fortunately, DoP (DSD over PCM) isn't PCM conversion. :) Per ted_b at computeraudiophile: DoP standard means that a 24/176k PCM signal carries the native DSD...but it's still native DSD, not converted.

I disagree with him. It is conversion (in a sense) and it sounds worse. Slightly veiled in fact and a little dull. Is it night and day? No. Is there a difference, yes. Next time you're over, I will play for you the difference.

In the popular Hi-Fi press, it had been suggested that linear PCM "creates [a] stress reaction in people", and that DSD "is the only digital recording system that does not [...] have these effects" (Hawksford 2001).

I will admit, the differences are subtle, and on a less revealing system, and practically unnoticeable. But given a highly revealing system, I do hear a difference. YMMV.

A couple of months ago, someone asked Michael Lavorgna of Audiostream his thoughts and his response was:

My longer answer begins by pointing out that DSD is not a PCM replacement and it never will be. Rather DSD is another format that at present offers a limited number of titles from a limited number of suppliers. So while DSD sounds really good and unlike PCM imo, comparing DSD playback to PCM playback is pretty much a moot point since DSD will never completely replace PCM. Ever.

So I like to think of DSD as a nice additional feature for music playback. Another arrow in the quiver just like HD downloads as compared to CD-quality as compared to MP3s. The only true either/or comes about when a given title is available in HD PCM and DSD and while these are currently few and far between, the choice is a no brainer for me as I'd pick DSD over PCM any day of the week and twice on Sundays. I am hopeful that we'll have this choice more often with more titles in the near future at which time the decision to upgrade to a DSD-capable DAC will be even more enticing. Not to muddy my simple either/or scenario but some people with DSD DACs even find that they prefer upsampling all PCM data to DSD in their media player as you can with Signalyst's HQPlayer.

The other comment I've seen on some forums is the notion that if you're buying a DSD DAC, you're somehow neglecting PCM performance and this cannot be farther from the rational. Some well-regarded PCM-only DACs today can be turned into DSD-capable DACs tomorrow with the flip of a firmware upgrade. The Resonnessence Labs Invicta is one example. In general, DSD playback is part and parcel of PCM playback.

But DSD is no panacea and is subject to the same laws of mastering as PCM, namely garbage in garbage out especially if its been compacted first. It just so happens that the majority of DSD downloads available today also happen to be very well recorded (here are some sources).

So don't throw away your beloved PCM-only DACs just yet because PCM is here to stay (It will never die/It was meant to be that way/Though I don't know why). We can only hope that DSD is here to stay as well and the only sign that that's going to be the case is the availability of more DSD music.

Here's to more!



....even more info.....DSD vs PCM Interview with Ed Meitner | DSD-Guide.com
 
First off: any Enterprise drive will work for a NAS environment. The reason the REDs come into play is because they are some of the cheapest drives out there with a 3-year warranty. HD OEMs have changed warranty policies drastically over the past 12-18 months; WD was the first to use the easy color-coded "you get this warranty with this color" approach for consumers. Their MTBF is the same as the vast majority of just about every other drive in the WD lineup, and of other OEMs as well. The main difference is that TLER is hardcoded on in WD RED and above; you don't get this with Green or Blue drives. And while you can try to software-enable TLER on the cheaper (and lesser warranty drives), you may be shit-outta-luck when they start to drop off your array.

Secondly: It seems that people are seriously confusing the concept of streaming. DSD, or any type of file that matter, should be able to be read from any device for any reason from any device that can collect it over your LAN (and subsequently buffer it and play it). Whether you set the device up as a DLNA server/service (usually unnecessary) or as a SMB (sharing over your network, common with M$ and subsequently SAMBA on Linux offerings), once it is seen, as long as your infrastructure is capable of transferring the data - you are set. The NAS device is not and should not be expected to do the actual playback (transcoding->decoding->pre-amp, etc.). Now if your playback medium is not capable of pulling files from a basic home network - that is the player's problem, not the NAS!

Thirdly: A bitperfect rip of a DSD file (i.e. SACD->ISO->conversion) to, say, 88/24 resolution, still remains bitperfect and is nearly indistinguishable from the original. Is it ideal? No. But does it function well? Yes - especially if you do not have access to DSD core files or the playback software (or output capability from the player to the DAC). This is where DoP (DSD over PCM) comes in, but should more aptly be called DSD over USB (as most manufacturers are using USB as the interface). Basically: the device bitstreams the DSD file by piggybacking it through a PCM channel - no conversion is done, and the software is responsible for picking up on the DSD core file and running with it. There would be no SQ difference based on the source material, or file transfer (assuming your infrastructure can handle it), but you would almost certainly notice a difference from the playback software - and since this segment of the market is practically devoid of software devs, it may be quite some time before we see the WASAPI-standard for DSD playback.

Lastly: Mike, the 2001 "study" you mentioned was actually ripped off from a 1980 study! And it was the same guy that, in essence, said rock music was harmful to your health. Any double-blind tests done of Hi-Rez vs. DSD (especially recently) have resulted in one famous science'y word: 'inconclusive.'
 
PCM conversion of DSD files is less than ideal.
I think many would agree with that, Mike. What's interesting is that TAD's D600 digital player actually does convert DSD to PCM before decoding because they thought it just sounded better that way.:weird: I have a lot of respect for those Pioneer boys over there, too; they make some amazing stuff. I haven't actually heard the player myself, but a friend of mine has one and thinks it's the most lifelike player he's ever heard. FWIW.
 
First off: any Enterprise drive will work for a NAS environment. The reason the REDs come into play is because they are some of the cheapest drives out there with a 3-year warranty. HD OEMs have changed warranty policies drastically over the past 12-18 months; WD was the first to use the easy color-coded "you get this warranty with this color" approach for consumers. Their MTBF is the same as the vast majority of just about every other drive in the WD lineup, and of other OEMs as well. The main difference is that TLER is hardcoded on in WD RED and above; you don't get this with Green or Blue drives. And while you can try to software-enable TLER on the cheaper (and lesser warranty drives), you may be shit-outta-luck when they start to drop off your array.

Secondly: It seems that people are seriously confusing the concept of streaming. DSD, or any type of file that matter, should be able to be read from any device for any reason from any device that can collect it over your LAN (and subsequently buffer it and play it). Whether you set the device up as a DLNA server/service (usually unnecessary) or as a SMB (sharing over your network, common with M$ and subsequently SAMBA on Linux offerings), once it is seen, as long as your infrastructure is capable of transferring the data - you are set. The NAS device is not and should not be expected to do the actual playback (transcoding->decoding->pre-amp, etc.). Now if your playback medium is not capable of pulling files from a basic home network - that is the player's problem, not the NAS!

Thirdly: A bitperfect rip of a DSD file (i.e. SACD->ISO->conversion) to, say, 88/24 resolution, still remains bitperfect and is nearly indistinguishable from the original. Is it ideal? No. But does it function well? Yes - especially if you do not have access to DSD core files or the playback software (or output capability from the player to the DAC). This is where DoP (DSD over PCM) comes in, but should more aptly be called DSD over USB (as most manufacturers are using USB as the interface). Basically: the device bitstreams the DSD file by piggybacking it through a PCM channel - no conversion is done, and the software is responsible for picking up on the DSD core file and running with it. There would be no SQ difference based on the source material, or file transfer (assuming your infrastructure can handle it), but you would almost certainly notice a difference from the playback software - and since this segment of the market is practically devoid of software devs, it may be quite some time before we see the WASAPI-standard for DSD playback.

Lastly: Mike, the 2001 "study" you mentioned was actually ripped off from a 1980 study! And it was the same guy that, in essence, said rock music was harmful to your health. Any double-blind tests done of Hi-Rez vs. DSD (especially recently) have resulted in one famous science'y word: 'inconclusive.'

First, the WD Red drives are superior in every way to other non-NAS spec drives. First and foremost, their MTBF is specced 35% higher. That means they are designed to be more reliable which is the key for any NAS. End of story. You put regular cheapie drives in your NAS drive if you want....not me.

Very few NAS drives can actually stream DSD files to a music server like my Marantz NA11S1. The NAS requires an application (Linux based) to stream packets of data to the NAS.
Here is a recent press release on a NAS that can stream DSD: http://www.buffalo-asia.com/solutions/pre-release.pdf

To get around the known challenges, I've been toying with www.minimserver.com - but still no luck.

Sure, getting DSD files off the NAS via a Mac or PC is a piece of cake. Try streaming it. Good luck. Why do you think LINN has not tackled DSD? Getting DSD files to stream to a music server is still in its infancy stage. If any NAS can do it as you claim, why would Buffalo make such a big deal about their new NAS being able to steam DSD?

Lastly, I've compared PCM to DSD in my system - have you? IMO it's certainly not "inconclusive". Close....but definitely noticeable.
 
I think many would agree with that, Mike. What's interesting is that TAD's D600 digital player actually does convert DSD to PCM before decoding because they thought it just sounded better that way.:weird: I have a lot of respect for those Pioneer boys over there, too; they make some amazing stuff. I haven't actually heard the player myself, but a friend of mine has one and thinks it's the most lifelike player he's ever heard. FWIW.

There technically should be no difference between DSD and PCM in what I'm hearing - but there is. In trying to figure out WHY it sounds different, I've come to the conclusion that the drivers between PCM and DSD are often (almost always) different. DSD uses ASIO natively. Some people feel that ASIO is cleaner than DoP with WASAPi for example). I tend to agree. We haven't seen ASIO doing DoP - which would be identical to DSD via ASIO. It is simply the driver differences we are hearing IMO....but different none the less IMO.

As for TAD - I'm sure they developed a superior PCM driver and it bettered the DSD driver, combined with a better overall implementation.

But we truthfully are splitting hairs here between DSD and PCM. It's still all digital.

I knew there was a reason I went back to Vinyl.....much simpler!
 
I will probably need help too! I was thinking of ordering it also. Maybe we will have the same problems and make it easier for everybody here.

Gotta love that guy:

Hey gang: If I go out and buy a Synology 1812 and some hard drives from amazon and try to set up a back up server myself....can I bug the hell out of you if I need to trouble shoot?
 
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