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- #1
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MSB Reference DAC
- Thread starter Mike
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Well deserved accolades for the Reference DAC. I am so happy with my Select II DAC that I can’t even put it into words. I am blown away by what I hear every time I turn it on. It perfectly completes my system. The functionality of the Renderer Input Module and the Roon Nucleus Plus puts all my music seamlessly at my fingertips. I guess you could say that I’m on cloud nine!
Ken
Ken
Ditto! Amazing company MSB.
Kingrex
Active member
Why not try a better source. I was treated to a demo of The Linear Solution Network Streamer a couple days ago. Definitely an improvement to my digital playback. I have the full Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC and Deja Vu server. Both the designer of the switch and maker of my Server/DAC agree a high quality source impacts the performance of a Network Attached device. There are many devices well beyond the performance of a Nuc Plus. They just lack all the functionality of the Nuc as they are designed for performance playback. Just a though.
Has anyone yet inserted a better player in front of their Select after using a Nuc?
Has anyone yet inserted a better player in front of their Select after using a Nuc?
Please take it from someone who actually owns a Nucleus Plus and has listened to it extensively, its sound quality and functionality are top notch. You are selling it way short, in my opinion.
I would imagine an audiophile server such as the updated SGM (with Ethernet connection) may sound better and will be able to handle more albums but it costs many times the price of the Nucleus Plus. The Nucleus Plus is a reasonably priced audiophile quality music server and turnkey solution for Roon endpoint DACs.
Ken
- Thread Author
- #6
Kingrex - what I think needs clarification is that the MSB Roon Renderer module is a purposely built, from the ground up, Linux computer using no shortcuts. It just needs a computer running Roon Core and nothing is better than the Nucleus plus IMO.
If you’re running another DAC, then there are a myriad of options.
As companies sort out and start to build proper Roon modules (not just an off the shelf Ethernet connection), then we will see things similar to what MSB is doing. Less is more.
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If you’re running another DAC, then there are a myriad of options.
As companies sort out and start to build proper Roon modules (not just an off the shelf Ethernet connection), then we will see things similar to what MSB is doing. Less is more.
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Kingrex
Active member
I'm not trying to be insulting. I know little about MSB. I did have a conversation with a Roon guy showing off the NUC at a local hifi shop. I was asking about it's high fidelity pedigree. What they were doing to make it sonically superior to others. He was pretty upfront in saying it's good, but not designed to compete with a real server. It's a multi use devices with ease of functionality designed into it.
My experience the other day as I understood, validated a Network Renderer/Endpoint is doing part of the work. Not all, but part. The performance of the preceding server influences the playback quality. List price for a Select all set up is well over $100K. If you spend that seeking the best, why not go for all the performance and move from a $2500 Nuc to a Innuous, Antipodes, Mojo, Sound Galleries server. Feed that MSB the best darn signal you can give it.
Maybe I am totally wrong and the MSB card does everything. The source could be an iphone through a wifi router and nothing more needed. That is not my understanding how some other Network Servers work. At least I am understanding the source matters as I am doing research on if I want to add a network streamer into my system.
Mike, you sell the Zenith Mark II SE??? Have you tried it, or is MSB that different. What feeds MSB DAC at shows?
Interested to know. Thanks
My experience the other day as I understood, validated a Network Renderer/Endpoint is doing part of the work. Not all, but part. The performance of the preceding server influences the playback quality. List price for a Select all set up is well over $100K. If you spend that seeking the best, why not go for all the performance and move from a $2500 Nuc to a Innuous, Antipodes, Mojo, Sound Galleries server. Feed that MSB the best darn signal you can give it.
Maybe I am totally wrong and the MSB card does everything. The source could be an iphone through a wifi router and nothing more needed. That is not my understanding how some other Network Servers work. At least I am understanding the source matters as I am doing research on if I want to add a network streamer into my system.
Mike, you sell the Zenith Mark II SE??? Have you tried it, or is MSB that different. What feeds MSB DAC at shows?
Interested to know. Thanks
- Thread Author
- #8
I don’t sell Zenith. I think there is some confusion. You’re talking apples, we are talking oranges. The Nucleus+ is not being used as a “music server” in the traditional sense of the word. It’s simply running Roon Core. There is NO USB involved. No direct connection. The Nucleus’ sole purpose is to run Roon Core. That’s it. Everything else is built into the Roon Renderer module.
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Mike,
Is it safe to say that unless you’re using DSP processing in Roon, the digital data is going straight from the NAS to the MSB Renderer Input Module and all digital processing is handled there?
Ken
Kingrex
Active member
My point exactly, its the core. It matters. Its ethernet connected, same as the Endpoint I heard. It's suppose to matter. I don't see why they would differ. Its probably still an ARM processor with Linux software.
- Thread Author
- #11
It doesn’t.
I just confirmed with the lead tech at Roon - for the third time. There is NO sonic difference between a Nucleus, MacBook Pro, Small Green Computer or whatever someone else is trying to sell you (or make you believe). It's TCP/IP protocol and they have tested extensively. No sound difference.
The difference is in EXPERIENCE. An old slow Mac/PC will hang, give errors, etc. A fast Nucleus+ will give a much more enjoyable user experience.
But from the head Roon tech man himself: none of the devices VIA ethernet (TCP/IP) SONICALLY sound different.
Now, if you are connected via USB, YES! big sound differences between music servers.
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I just confirmed with the lead tech at Roon - for the third time. There is NO sonic difference between a Nucleus, MacBook Pro, Small Green Computer or whatever someone else is trying to sell you (or make you believe). It's TCP/IP protocol and they have tested extensively. No sound difference.
The difference is in EXPERIENCE. An old slow Mac/PC will hang, give errors, etc. A fast Nucleus+ will give a much more enjoyable user experience.
But from the head Roon tech man himself: none of the devices VIA ethernet (TCP/IP) SONICALLY sound different.
Now, if you are connected via USB, YES! big sound differences between music servers.
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KeithR
Active member
I connect my Innuous via isolated ethernet actually - there is definitely a difference between their line of servers including the TOTL Statement all connected to MSB renderer. Quiet frankly i think there is an apples and oranges argument going on here.
- Thread Author
- #13
Correct, it’s acting as a filter. There are other network filters out there. A few of our members are testing some now.
But a PC computer running Roon and a Nucleus running Roon and a small green computer - all running Roon sound the same.
Adding a filter has sonic benefits.
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Kingrex
Active member
Mike, I'm confused. Let me tell you what I heard. Roon tech told you, you cant hear a difference between a Nuc, Mac or Green based upon the hardware. But you then said you can hear a difference because either the hardware, or the software in the hardware is acting as a filter. Is that what you said?
still-one
Active member
The way I read what Mike posted.... with a direct ethernet connection all those devices would sound the same. "If" you were to add a ethernet isolation device it might change the sound as it "could" be acting as a filter. Some individuals are testing some of the "isolation" devices and he is waiting for feedback.
- Thread Author
- #16
Kingrex
Active member
I feel like I'm poking a hornets nest, but I'm pretty passionate about getting the most from my digital in my comfort zone of investment. I'm not trying to be a conflict oriented jerk. I am open and listening to what works.
Alrainbow has told me many times ethernet isolation devices work. A lot better than the USB ones. He does not call it a filter. Its isolation. My server uses a JCat ethernet card. I'm sure the Innuos Keith uses has a well isolated ethernet connection as well. It may have significant PS topology that stands above a Nuc. Power Supply play a big part, even ethernet. My Linear Solution Switch made a difference.
It still says something that Keith can hear different iterations of his Innuous server. I don't believe that is filtering. I believe it is a very clean PS with a very good ethernet device providing a highly accurate and clean signal to the MSB Ethernet Renderer
I think its worth investigating if performance is being left of the table. I'm not at a level of gear such as MSB, but I sure do a lot to maximize what I have. Linear PS to my Switch. Soon to be linear to the router and NAS. Blue Jeans Cat 6 pulled though out the house. Wall mount brackets with isolation devices to hold switches and routers. OFC cord feeding everything. I don't mess with Romex wire any more. I proved to myself OFC cord is far superior as a feed from the panel to the gear. Everything get at least a Porter Port outlet and better power cord. I find it all makes a difference. Nothing in audio IMO is drop on the table and go. It all requires though, testing and tuning. If I had MSB Select II money I would try feeding it a superior signal from a purpose built device designed to only send the most clean ethernet signal possible.
I do not believe anything I am talking about would be a significant change in and among itself. I admit it can add up to a bit of money. I think all the small adds I have in place would be very audible even with an MSB.
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Alrainbow has told me many times ethernet isolation devices work. A lot better than the USB ones. He does not call it a filter. Its isolation. My server uses a JCat ethernet card. I'm sure the Innuos Keith uses has a well isolated ethernet connection as well. It may have significant PS topology that stands above a Nuc. Power Supply play a big part, even ethernet. My Linear Solution Switch made a difference.
It still says something that Keith can hear different iterations of his Innuous server. I don't believe that is filtering. I believe it is a very clean PS with a very good ethernet device providing a highly accurate and clean signal to the MSB Ethernet Renderer
I think its worth investigating if performance is being left of the table. I'm not at a level of gear such as MSB, but I sure do a lot to maximize what I have. Linear PS to my Switch. Soon to be linear to the router and NAS. Blue Jeans Cat 6 pulled though out the house. Wall mount brackets with isolation devices to hold switches and routers. OFC cord feeding everything. I don't mess with Romex wire any more. I proved to myself OFC cord is far superior as a feed from the panel to the gear. Everything get at least a Porter Port outlet and better power cord. I find it all makes a difference. Nothing in audio IMO is drop on the table and go. It all requires though, testing and tuning. If I had MSB Select II money I would try feeding it a superior signal from a purpose built device designed to only send the most clean ethernet signal possible.
I do not believe anything I am talking about would be a significant change in and among itself. I admit it can add up to a bit of money. I think all the small adds I have in place would be very audible even with an MSB.
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Hi Rex,
You’re not the only one who has optimized their network. I have an optical isolating ethernet filter that eliminates 99.99999% of noise on the line and has an upgraded audiophile power supply. It sits just before my Select II DAC. My network also has audiophile Cat 8 ethernet cables. The results are astounding. Music emerges from a dead silent background. The Roon Nucleus Plus in conjunction with the MSB Renderer Input Module leaves nothing on the table performance wise that I can hear.
Ken
Hi Brodric,
From a performance perspective, no. When the network has been optimized, the Select II DAC played through the Renderer Input Module sounds significantly better than when I played discs on my Esoteric Grandioso K1/G1.
However, if you have friends that like to come over and bring discs to play, you like to constantly sample new discs or you’re nostalgic for spinning discs, then it could still make sense. According to Mike, who has both, the new MSB Transports have equal performance to the Renderer Input Module.
Best,
Ken