MAGICO M3 - Review

I don't feel that the M3's need subwoofers. Yes like any speakers, imo, a really good sub will add that extra dimension.

If the M3s don't work in a room, I don't think that subs will fix it. The M3s go down so low that when you add the sub you are crossing it over in the low 30 hz range. That will not give you the feel of more bass. Extended bass but not more bass. If you cross the subs over higher I believe it will smear the Magico bass up and screw the Magico sound that the M3s do so well.

Just my thoughts.
 
Kuoppis said:
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What however is undeniable, if we have a whopping $70K speaker in play ($80K with the proper footers) and you basically have the option to resort to one of 3-4 amplifier manufacturers (each costing between $40-60K) or then to add $10-40K subwoofers to make them sound right, we are talking about very serious limitations for a speaker in this premium price bracket. There also must be a reason why Alon is always demoing them with subs (I generally do very strongly subscribe to the benefit adding subs brings for the mid range).
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In general, Magico speakers are not more difficult to drive then Wilson, to the contrary (They are less efficient due to their sealed bass alignment, but that is another story and true in most cases of sealed vs. ported). The amp selections are not limited, not more or less than any other run-of-the-mill loudspeakers. Same goes to a sub. All speakers can benefit from a good sub integration, but none must have it. It will do very little to the actual dynamics, if properly integrated. If you are “lacking” something, a sub will not cure it, it will enhance the experience, not fix it.

BTW, I heard the M3, for the first time, couple of weeks ago. I can't imagine going back form a speaker like that to a Wilson product (sorry, no PC here), but as Adam says, this is a medium size speaker, turning it to a boom box will simply not work. If you favor quantity, the S series will still be a much better choice than the Wilson offering. But as the guy from Wilson says so eloquently (:rolleyes:), YMMV :P
 
the professor said:
I don't feel that the M3's need subwoofers. Yes like any speakers, imo, a really good sub will add that extra dimension.

If the M3s don't work in a room, I don't think that subs will fix it. The M3s go down so low that when you add the sub you are crossing it over in the low 30 hz range. That will not give you the feel of more bass. Extended bass but not more bass. If you cross the subs over higher I believe it will smear the Magico bass up and screw the Magico sound that the M3s do so well.

Just my thoughts.
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I agree that the M3's don't need subs, but you're forgetting all the array of tuning options provided by the Q Sub 15's DSP-controlled active x-over, 2000 watt internal amp and ability to deliver 136db spl <1% THD @20 Hz. I suggested earlier they're an option worth considering. No one is saying Barry should rush out and write a cheque for a pair, and indeed I'd be just as peachy if he down-shifted to S5 Mk2's as I posted earlier. But you might ask yourself, if M3's + Q Sub 15's can pressurize Magico's cavernous listening room, why would they not do the same in Barry's room with expert setup? Just curious.
 
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the professor said:
I don't feel that the M3's need subwoofers. Yes like any speakers, imo, a really good sub will add that extra dimension.

If the M3s don't work in a room, I don't think that subs will fix it. The M3s go down so low that when you add the sub you are crossing it over in the low 30 hz range. That will not give you the feel of more bass. Extended bass but not more bass. If you cross the subs over higher I believe it will smear the Magico bass up and screw the Magico sound that the M3s do so well.

Just my thoughts.
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When Alon showed the M3s at RMAF 2016, he had the Magico subs with them and I thought it sounded really good.
 
Elberoth said:
PS. I do not think the amps are to blame. Burmester 911s are very capable in the bass department. Vitus may sound better to many thanks to their warmer, more relaxed and fluid presentation, but I highly doubt they will improve upon 911s in the bass.
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Well Barry just has one 911 Mk3, not mono's. I don't agree with your view that Vitus amps would not provide better bass. Here is what I posted earlier..

Melbguy1 said:
Finally, although the M3's are moderately efficient @91db into a 4 ohm load, Magico speakers need plenty of power to properly control them. I don't quite agree with Jap's summary of your Burmester 911 Mk3. That amp has a fairly small 700va transformer with 130,000uF total capacitance & weights 31kg (which is mostly the transformer). By comparison my Vitus SIA-025 has a very efficient 1.4kVa transformer with 144,000uF total capacitance & weighs 42kg. By "very efficient", I mean it sounds like a big 2kVa tranny. A more powerful amp would certainly help give you that last bit of bass depth and control. However I wouldn't put the cart before the horse by considering an amp upgrade just yet. Let your speakers run in, then experiment with speaker positioning. And if you're still not getting enough bass depth and slam, then it's time to consider an amp upgrade.
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And the Vitus SM-011 mono's have more than twice the total capacitance of SIA-025.
 
I didn't hear that demo. But I'm sure it did-- absolutely. What I heard with the dual Q15s was GREAT! Which is why I bought a pair of the Q15s. But that's a different discussion.

What I'm saying is that the M3s don't need subs. There is a BIG difference of sounding better with and NEEDING them. It's really easy here to get lost of the people that are blessed over the last 8 years and can afford to spend the extra $40,000 to buy Q15s to get 2-3% better sound over the 94% that the M3s do by themselves.

mep said:
When Alon showed the M3s at RMAF 2016, he had the Magico subs with them and I thought it sounded really good.
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the professor said:
I didn't hear that demo. But I'm sure it did-- absolutely. What I heard with the dual Q15s was GREAT! Which is why I bought a pair of the Q15s. But that's a different discussion.

What I'm saying is that the M3s don't need subs. There is a BIG difference of sounding better with and NEEDING them. It's really easy here to get lost of the people that are blessed over the last 8 years and can afford to spend the extra $40,000 to buy Q15s to get 2-3% better sound over the 94% that the M3s do by themselves.
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Oh. We are having a different conversation than what I originally thought. When it comes right down to it, we don't "need" a stereo system, but those on this forum damn sure want one. I thought you were trying to make the argument that the bottom end of the M3s reaches all the way down into the bottom octave and doesn't require subs. What I think you are really saying is that the M3s will sound better with the Magico subs, but you wouldn't spend the money on them for what you perceive as a slight improvement in SQ.
 
mep said:
Oh. We are having a different conversation than what I originally thought. When it comes right down to it, we don't "need" a stereo system, but those on this forum damn sure want one. I thought you were trying to make the argument that the bottom end of the M3s reaches all the way down into the bottom octave and doesn't require subs. What I think you are really saying is that the M3s will sound better with the Magico subs, but you wouldn't spend the money on them for what you perceive as a slight improvement in SQ.
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Isn't that what we, as audiophiles, always do?
 
Kuoppis said:
I am a Magico owner and do like the sound. Nevertheless it is striking how strong a Magico bias the comments here bear.

We have in this thread someone who has the means to decide freely and is an actual M3 owner, is coming from the fuller sounding Wilson world, and finds that Magicos can sound a bit lean for his taste. Principal lack of quality of amplification can be ruled out with Burmester and CH Precision in the driving seat.

While I find it a meaningful approach to talk about system synergy, which here has been suggested on many occasions, it is equally striking, that in last week's Wilson Yvette bashing none of the very same guys made that point in a thread about a Wilson speaker.

Yet, while e.g. the Q3 is a superbly resolving speaker, many have found it a bit lean sounding. Perhaps we have something similar here, even though from a Magico sound perspective the M3 might be 'fuller' sounding in comparison.

And while the room in question is a living room with high ceilings, we are not talking about a church or concert hall here.

What however is undeniable, if we have a whopping $70K speaker in play ($80K with the proper footers) and you basically have the option to resort to one of 3-4 amplifier manufacturers (each costing between $40-60K) or then to add $10-40K subwoofers to make them sound right, we are talking about very serious limitations for a speaker in this premium price bracket. There also must be a reason why Alon is always demoing them with subs (I generally do very strongly subscribe to the benefit adding subs brings for the mid range).

On that note, I personally think I could be very happy with the M3s, because I do like the Magico sound. Yet I am liberal enough to admit that it is not the only option there is and that the very limited amp choices with Magicos can be a kind of a problem.

Ok fanboys, now you can start the bashing. I just wanted to see whether we can get some energy going here [emoji3].
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One of better posts I've read on this forum. Thank you.
 
Just wanted to provide an update on the M3's in my system.

The CH A1 monoblocks didn't provide any additional oomph or changes to the overall lack of dynamic punch to the sonics. The Viola Concerto mono blocks sounded better, but still overall, no dice. Also upgraded speaker cables as well. My dealer has been great to work with, and we will attempt to re-position the M3's and see what that brings. I'll give them 2 more months or so to ensure full break-in. If I'm still not happy with the sound, I'll trade them in,re-purchase Wilson Alexias and call it a learning experience(I really wish there was a speaker in the Wilson line between the Alexia and Alexx).

My intention has never been to impugn my dealer, Magico or Wilson as brands, or to incite a Magico vs Wilson debate. For the most part, the tenor of this thread has avoided such pitfalls which makes this forum an exception to many others. I appreciate all the counsel, and hope that my experiences can also help those of you guiding other audiophiles in the future.
Barry
 
Kippyy

Have you thought about trying something with powered bass modules like the Vandersteen 5A Carbon or 7A. Should be fairly easy to get a demo in your area.
 
Kippyy said:
Just wanted to provide an update on the M3's in my system.

The CH A1 monoblocks didn't provide any additional oomph or changes to the overall lack of dynamic punch to the sonics. The Viola Concerto mono blocks sounded better, but still overall, no dice. Also upgraded speaker cables as well. My dealer has been great to work with, and we will attempt to re-position the M3's and see what that brings. I'll give them 2 more months or so to ensure full break-in. If I'm still not happy with the sound, I'll trade them in,re-purchase Wilson Alexias and call it a learning experience(I really wish there was a speaker in the Wilson line between the Alexia and Alexx).

My intention has never been to impugn my dealer, Magico or Wilson as brands, or to incite a Magico vs Wilson debate. For the most part, the tenor of this thread has avoided such pitfalls which makes this forum an exception to many others. I appreciate all the counsel, and hope that my experiences can also help those of you guiding other audiophiles in the future.
Barry
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Barry - it's no worries. We welcome your participation and we look to learn from your experiences. We only want you to be happy at the end of the day. Please continue to participate in the forum (on other topics too).


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Barry, the most important thing in the end is that you're happy with the final configuration of your system as Mike said. And if the Alexia's in the end tick all the boxes for you, then returning to Wilson is a safe bet. FYI the Wilson vs Magico feud is more bark than bite...it's just a bit of friendly rivalry like Borg-McEnroe.

However just to throw a cat amongst the pidgeons, the original Magico S5 Mk1 was popular amongst Sasha and even Alexia owners looking to upgrade due to its voicing and more robust bass (compared to the Q series). And the S5 Mk2 is significantly better & has deeper bass with more micro details, more intimate/resolving mids, more open, transparent top end and builds on the S5 Mk1's already excellent balance and coherency. Sans subs, I think the S5 Mk2 in M-coat finish with the optional S Pod feet would likely tick all the boxes in your situation. With that said, I hope once your M3's are fully run in & you've dialed in the best speaker position they come good. Great loudspeakers!
 
Barry, may I ask what was your goal when replacing the WA Alexias, i.e. what did you want to change in your system or the sound when switching to the M3s? Just asking, as we're operating on a pretty high level here system-wise?

Second question, in case you decide to trade-in the M3s, ever considered the new Raidho D4.1 instead? Might be sound-wise more up your alley. Going back to a model you already had, but were somehow not satisfied enough with to replace them, appears - sorry for the bluntness - a bit uninspired.


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It looks like a burn-in issue, which i had the same feeling with my raidho d-3.1 before 300 hours, but if your speakers over 400-500 hours burn-in period, i believe learning experience completed. Trying new cables, new amplifiers, new sources is useless most of the time. Life is too short to spend something you dont like to hear.
 
As stated earlier in this thread. The system isn't any better than the weakest link. It's in my belief that by changing a cable or two ( or doing other tweaks) can be a night and day difference. Have you tried to test the M3 with other cable-ling? Maybe even full looms?

I've experienced that just a single powercord can destroy a entire system. I would like to think that by having such expensive speakers, you'll need to have the right accessories to compliment the speakers.

It's a main concern that people always seems to either switch speakers or amplifiers if there is any issues they dislike in the system. That is a really expensive road to go, and there is a possibility that it will only enhance your system slighty, while doing cables or ground devices can do a huge difference, even in rooms that should not be fixable.

I know this is in a another league, but I'm running the scansonics MB-1's. People tends to say that the MB series is hard to handle and a lot of people has given up on the speakers. Truth be told, IMHO the Scansonic MB series is "cheap", but they can really perform as high-end speakers if you're doing things right, they can sound awful if you don't. :)
 
I was very happy with the Alexias and heard the M3's simply out of curiosity and as a potential upgrade path(I suffer from the common ailment of "upgradeitis"). What I heard in a much smaller, enclosed room was bass as good or better than the Alexias with better, ,sweet,exquisite detail in the treble. So far, this has not translated into my larger, more open listening room.






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I'll reluctantly trade you my low hour s5mk2 for your m3's. They may be a bit big for my 12x18x9. Ill cover shipping too [emoji23][emoji23]. All kidding aside...when we listened at magico headquarters I did slightly prefer the sound with the subs once they were introduced...but prior to them being turned on I NEVER felt like the bass was lacking or that there was anything missing AT ALL!
And their room is quite large...I don't know exact dimensions but I'd guess 20x30x12

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