KT-120 - Consensus?

Esteban

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What's everybody's experience with the KT-120 like? I heard nothing but raves from all corners of the audiophile world about this new power tube. Recently, Prima Luna officially announced that all their amplifiers, new and old, can use KT-120s. I just installed a quad on my DiaLogue One integrated (previously running Gold Lion KT-88's) and after a couple of hours or so they sound... just like the KT-88s. No big change. Perhaps a slightly more open soundstage and a hint of extra detail, but that's about it. Bass slam and tightness, contrary to what I read everywhere else and what I was hoping for, remained the same. Midrange is still extended but not as sweet nor liquid as with an EL-34, and most folks are of the opinion that the KT-120 combines the grip of the KT-88 and the lushness of the EL-34. Doesn't seem so in my particular case. This is not a complain, but merely an observation. The sound is certainly not worse, nor really better, but just about the same as before (unlike when I went from EL-34's to KT-88's and the change was dramatic, in a good way).

Anybody else experienced similar results?
 
Great question. I've found the big KT-120's sound more open and more powerful - but I never tried them in a PrimaLuna (love those amps by the way!). In my opinion, they need to be paired with a bigger power supply to really shine. On their own, they are quite good.

Have you noticed any increase in power? Even slightly?
 
Thanks, Mike. No, I did not notice any increase in power whatsoever. I actually wasn't expecting one, since I know the Prima Luna amps run the tubes very conservatively, but I was hoping for a little more grip, extension and slam in the bass, while at the same time regaining some of the EL-34 midrange magic. This is what most folks using KT-120's have been experiencing and raving about. A "best of both worlds" type of scenario...

I'll keep listening. Perhaps they'll open up a little. I live in a condo, and maybe the building's power grid is being taxed by all those AC units running 24/7. That might be affecting the performance. Our floor is packed with tourists this year, it seems, and they all run their washer and dryers constantly. Don't want to be the owner of that unit when they receive the electric bill!
 
When you switch (roll) back to the old tubes, the change might become more apparent. Definitely give the tubes a little time to break in. I find 60 hours works.
 
My problem is that if your amp was designed for 6550/KT88's that you are much better off using them. For one, you will have more idle plate current and other factors. As noted, there will be no gain in power as that is still dependent of the transformers and other aspects of the topology.

I suspect that most who are liking them have a confirmation bias thing going on. Frankly, I prefer my ARC VS-110 over the VS-115, which are basically the same amp with the main difference being that the VS-110 having 6550/KT88's and the VS-115 KT120's.

Kevin Deal (Primaluna) isn't a fool and maybe he has been able to voice his amps favorably for the KT120, or just likes the positive press for using them.

Jim
 
My problem is that if your amp was designed for 6550/KT88's that you are much better off using them. For one, you will have more idle plate current and other factors. As noted, there will be no gain in power as that is still dependent of the transformers and other aspects of the topology.

I suspect that most who are liking them have a confirmation bias thing going on. Frankly, I prefer my ARC VS-110 over the VS-115, which are basically the same amp with the main difference being that the VS-110 having 6550/KT88's and the VS-115 KT120's.

Kevin Deal (Primaluna) isn't a fool and maybe he has been able to voice his amps favorably for the KT120, or just likes the positive press for using them.

Jim

VS-115 originaly came with 6550 if I'm not mistaken, to me the VS-110 and VS-115 came from the same family but sounded different with the 115 having more authority in the lower register.

Also as I posted somewhere else the VS-110 did give me a bigger sound, but then again YMMV.

Just my two cents!
 
Dan:

The beauty is the personal preferences, having heard both, VS110/VS115, I preferred the VS110 as it was more linear and overall sweeter and yet not overly warm. The VS115 was a bit bloated in the lower octaves, which many obviously like.

It could be the difference in the front end tubes, the VS110 uses 6N1P's which are akin to 6922's and the VS115, 6H30's that are said to be more like 6SN7's.

The VS115 did originally come with 6550's, and does have different output tranny's. After about 18 months, ARC did start using the KT120's and discontinued the amp about a year later.

Jim
 
Always hard to compare tube amps as it is nearly impossible to find tubes that have the same hours of use. Happy you like the 110, for the money it's one true bargain on the used market!
 
Funny when I got my Octave V110 I thought the KT120's were great but as the tubes broke in I found them very bright and forward. Changing the input and drivers helped out a lot. The best part of the KT120's they are inexpensive compared to most NOS/Vintage tubes. Still no where as good as the original Tung Sol 6550 solid black plates. The nice thing about the V110 it has a switch on the back to change the plate voltage from 620 to 540 to use EL34's - 6550's and KT88/90's. Ei KT90's work great at 620V.
 
After being cleared for KT120 takeoff by the Jolida crew (assured that the amp had the juice to handle 'em), I tried a set of 4 in my then new "factory modded" JD502p amp...a year and a half ago. I've stuck the original 6550s back in a few times for comparison, along with a set of nice sounding Sovtek KT88s I found for el-cheapo, but the 120s win. They've done the heavy lifting for many hours and sound tight, revealing, and sweet in my rig, and show no signs of wear with zero bias drift, distortion, or any other issues hinting at age. Maybe next time I'll try the cryoed 120s or 150s, but the slam and headroom provided by this little amp with 120s doesn't beg for more power as currently set up.
 
Great news. Thank you so much for the update and info. This is getting very interesting. So much great gear out there.



After being cleared for KT120 takeoff by the Jolida crew (assured that the amp had the juice to handle 'em), I tried a set of 4 in my then new "factory modded" JD502p amp...a year and a half ago. I've stuck the original 6550s back in a few times for comparison, along with a set of nice sounding Sovtek KT88s I found for el-cheapo, but the 120s win. They've done the heavy lifting for many hours and sound tight, revealing, and sweet in my rig, and show no signs of wear with zero bias drift, distortion, or any other issues hinting at age. Maybe next time I'll try the cryoed 120s or 150s, but the slam and headroom provided by this little amp with 120s doesn't beg for more power as currently set up.
 
A few months after starting it, I'm coming back to this thread to share a recent experience. In short: after experimenting with the Gold Lion KT-88's and Tung Sol KT-120's in my Prima Luna DiaLogue One, I ended up going full circle and back to where I started: the stock EL-34 tubes. These are labeled as "Prima Luna", but are actually made by Shuguang in China and, supposedly, only the better-rated ones end up being used for the Prima Luna amps.

My journey could basically be described like this: I started with EL-34's, loved the sweetness and midrange magic but needed a little more grip on the low-end, so I switched to Gold Lion KT-88's. The Prima Luna auto-bias feature took care of the rest. I LOVED that combination (and loved the way the Gold Lions LOOK, as inconsequential as that sounds), but reliability was an issue. One exploded while in use, and the rest would loose their sparkle and life in less than a year, with moderate to low use on the amp. At $200+ per quad for tubes that don't even last a year, things get expensive really quickly, so I needed an alternative.

I then tried the KT-120's that everybody was raving about, and I have already shared my comments and thoughts here on that front. Originally, they were not my cup of tea. Too aggressive and bright. I actually gave them a second chance, burned them in for at least 200 extra hours and they definitely got better (less harsh on the top, rounder in the mids, but with no extra "grip" gained on the bottom). Still, the magic was just not there and my amp was never designed with that tube in mind anyway, so why even bother?

I then went back to the stock EL-34's that I still had sitting in the closet. These were not as "sweet" and "magical" as I remembered them, ironically, offering bass aplenty (albeit looser, slightly sloppier bass, a quality that for some reason I tend to like on most material since it seems to allow the music to feel more tangible, less sterile and artificial), and an incredibly more open, extended and detailed soundstage, which definitely got "wider" and more stable when compared to the KT-120's. With the emphasis being on the mids, there's a lot of details to be gained that were perhaps a little obscured by the more linear characteristics of the KT-88's and KT-120's. Notes in the upper-lows are now considerably more clear and I'm simply hearing a ton more music in the bass and low end. Yes, the KT-120's were sturdier and maybe even allowed my Sonus Faber Toy Towers to go a little lower, but at the expense of detail and finesse, I believe. This translates into a significantly more "crystalline" presentation, with the well-known musicality and ripeness of the EL-34 in place, and one that I am finding myself preferring. It all works wonders with jazz and classical, particularly with strings, but rock albums actually sound more vibrant as well. Certain passages tend to break up a little bit, but oddly enough this only happens with very few instances of highly distorted guitars and/or very, very complex passages on extreme metal albums (a genre I also love). Overall, though, I think the EL-34's are back and staying, at least for now. Next experiment: the Gold Lion KT-77's. Anybody have any experience with them?
 
Interesting journey. The EL34's have that magic, less so with KT88's, but still enjoyable and musical and almost no tube magic existent with KT120's in my experience.

The only problem with EL34's is availability.

No experience with KT77's here. Too new! :)
 
Can't say that's been my experience. Yes, EL34s have a little more midrange but the extremes and dynamics are nothing to write home about.

My main issue with the 120s has been reliability. I've now lost 4 within 1000 hrs. Not quite as bad as the early Chinese 6550s that all basically died within 300 hrs --and when they did--quite spectacularly.
 
Can't say that's been my experience. Yes, EL34s have a little more midrange but the extremes and dynamics are nothing to write home about.

Miles, even though my amp can accept all the tube types described earlier, and then more, it was optimized for EL-34's, so I suppose that explains my preference in this case. Ideally, I would prefer the magic of the EL-34's with the grip and extension of the Gold Lion KT-88 re-issue, but, like you, reliability is a factor. The Chinese Prima Luna tubes seem to be VERY reliable. I'm curious about the Gold Lion KT-77's, though, since they are a drop-in replacement for the EL-34's and supposedly offer better bass extension and a warmer sound...
 
I kinda stick to what cj recommends since they focus on reliability. Maybe a little conservative but when you're running 16 tubes.....

I guess I'd love to try the EATs but at that price. :(

OTOH I've shied away from trying the GL tubes because I really didn't like the sound of the 12ax7s in my phono stage.
 
OTOH I've shied away from trying the GL tubes because I really didn't like the sound of the 12ax7s in my phono stage.

Same here. I tried a pair of Gold Lion 12AX7's in my Prima Luna. One was defective (noisy, and then died right away), and even while they worked they did not impress me either compared to the stock Chinese Prima Luna pre-amp tubes. Then again, I also tried some diamond-bottom Telefunkens 12AX7's and did not like those, either.
 
When you switch (roll) back to the old tubes, the change might become more apparent. Definitely give the tubes a little time to break in. I find 60 hours works.

My experience supports yours. A good friend who owns an ARC REF110 decided to upgrade his amplifier with KT120's, although the 6550's were still about half life. Recently he experienced an intermittent noise and to track it we replaced the KT120's with the old 6550's. The difference was far greater than we could expect - less apparent sound body and bass control. Happily the problem was only due to a noisy 6H30 and after one week he could return to the KT120's.
 
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