If.....

sharkmouth

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Need help here. My journey has a fork in the road. Do I need to go server or t/t? I'm sick & tired of the roller coaster of cd's etc, is vinyl as good as it gets & can i do it at around $10K for a t/t. Please help .....
 
Myles, all cd's basically,... but, if I went the t/t route it would be all vinyl from here on in & convert to files for easy off axis listening & also top up on very favourite/well mastered well recorded albums.
 
Server. Rip all your cd's to a NAS. I recommend a Lumin S1/Synology NAS/iPad combo. You can then buy hi res downloads from acoustic sounds and HDTracks and others. You can also be ready for hi res streaming.

I love my vinyl too, but you already have the music digitally and vinyl is a labor of love.

Later, if you still want to tinker with trying vinyl, you can add a VPI Classic 3/Ortofon cart (or similar combo) and slowly buy some of your favorite albums, remastered and/or new pressings.
 
Mike, I did try the Lumin in my system & didn't think it had more to offer that my macbookpro ssd oriented digital playback with the MA-1 Meitner. Will a VPI Classic through the phono on the 520 Soulution be a better thing do you think,or just another slant. Granted of course we are talking good mastering/recording on LP's, CD's.
 
Mike, I did try the Lumin in my system & didn't think it had more to offer that my macbookpro ssd oriented digital playback with the MA-1 Meitner. Will a VPI Classic through the phono on the 520 Soulution be a better thing do you think,or just another slant. Granted of course we are talking good mastering/recording on LP's, CD's.

Having owned the MA-1, I can't say I agree at all.

If you have a vinyl itch, then you need to scratch it. Vinyl is wonderful, but it's a labor of love. From cleaning records, to investing in vinyl (are you going to be like my friend who wants album X and bitches repeatedly that it costs $70?), to initial table setup, rechecking setup occasionally, cleaning the stylus, getting up to flip the album every 2 songs (45 RPM presses), etc., etc.
 
Having owned the MA-1, I can't say I agree at all.

If you have a vinyl itch, then you need to scratch it. Vinyl is wonderful, but it's a labor of love. From cleaning records, to investing in vinyl (are you going to be like my friend who wants album X and bitches repeatedly that it costs $70?), to initial table setup, rechecking setup occasionally, cleaning the stylus, getting up to flip the album every 2 songs (45 RPM presses), etc., etc.


One piece of the chain, is the dac Mike, preamp, cables etc......everything makes a difference ..... Once upon a time between my brothers & sisters & I we had close to 500 lps, all gone now.No elusions here about the chair time, just wondered if it is as good as the romanticists make it out to be with technology and all today. Been a long time since i spun a platter. Every now & then I get the hankering to go back but convince myself the difference really isn't that great. We have some wonderful & very knowledgeable/well listened members here that know that with the right system it maybe, just wanted to ask in case I am missing something that wasn't there 10 years ago! I know dealers that tell me so, i don't trust them!
 
Mike, I did try the Lumin in my system & didn't think it had more to offer that my macbookpro ssd oriented digital playback with the MA-1 Meitner. Will a VPI Classic through the phono on the 520 Soulution be a better thing do you think,or just another slant. Granted of course we are talking good mastering/recording on LP's, CD's.

KeV

Have Cam come around and set the Classic up, plugged into the Solution. I think it will be a good starter choice. Not sure what cartridges Cam has, but my preference would be for Lyra Delos over a Benz as it will have better transparency.

Cheers
 
Vinyl.... Agree with Mike, labour of love, very lifestyle unfriendly which could mean listening to music less. Expensive. A good stable table & arm, a great cart (it's all in the cart), record weight, isolation platform, silver phono cable, dedicated phone stage or superior pre-amp. Then you have maintenance.... Ultrasonic RCM/distilled water/cleaning fluid/machine pads (consumables are brand/model dependent), carbon fibre brush, inner sleeve & poly plastic outer sleeve stationary, lots of vertical storage space. Don't forget the setup equipment.... Protractor, digital scales, Fozgometer, USB microscope.

The best pressings are nearly as organic as tape but not as black as digital.

Do you still want to go there? If yes, you won't look back but you will want digital for the times when you could not be bothered framing yourself for the regiment of cleaning, cueing, listening, flipping, cueing, listening, cleaning....


I :heart: vinyl. Hope that helps.

Maybe Cameron can do a side-by-side for you given that he does Aurender & Esoteric combos too...
 
Well.... this is a polite pandora's box being opened up here . Agreed with everything that Mike said about the aggravation of analog which is immense and which only rises on a logarithmic progression the more obsessive you are about setup, Stylus Rake Angle, Azimuth and any other number of things out there . BUT - we're audiophiles right? We go through any number of irritating and annoying inconveniences for the sake of our passion simply because...we care about the music , we care about the final output - the sound. And I'm sorry but no number of DSD/DXD downloads or the nth level of digital nirvana will persuade me that digital sounds as good as or better than analog. Maybe no longer night-and-day but this Forum is chock-full of audiophiles going to extraordinary lengths and expense to tweak the last bit of performance out of their systems . Well, the first and most obvious move if you are inclined towards vinyl or have a collection ...is to get yourself a decent vinyl rig. Don't want all the aggravation ? - get yourself a Rega RP-10 - it'll blow almost any digital rig I've heard out of the water from a sonic perspective. What the Hell ....my 2cents worth
 
Hi Kev,

If you already have the built in phonostage with your 520 Soulution, IMO you owe it to yourself to at least demo a good TT / Cart combo just to hear it.

Do you have any local dealers willing to allow a demo of the various analog front end parts? In addition to the TT + arm + cartridge combo you'll also need some records to play, a record brush, stylus brush, zerostat (if your climate is static prone) and a phono cable set. I'd think that any dealer setting up a demo for you could supply these additional items to allow an enjoyable experience rather than a frustrating one.

No reason you can't keep and continue your digital collection either. Vinyl just adds another dimension.

Where I think vinyl really excels is with clean copies of various classical music pieces. There's just an organic beauty and natural smoothness that a good TT/Cart combo can present when playing back strings, woodwinds, brass and piano. Not saying these can't sound good digitally, but for me the analog reproduction just sounds better, fuller, more dynamic and more nuanced with texture that can be palpable.

Good luck!
 
The main thing Kev is that you need to be prepared for the good and bad associated with vinyl. I love it - always had a turntable - always will. It doesn't phase me, but a friend of mine who hadn't had a turntable since the 80's, finally went and bought one again. He was hearing all of us talking about how much we loved our vinyl rigs. Now all he does is bitch and complain about the cost of records, surface noise, setup, why there are 45RPM LP's, yada, yada, yada.

If you're willing to take the good with the bad and understand that vinyl does not offer any "digital ease": no way to make playlists, no way to easily skip between songs or albums and requires the patience of Job for setup - you will be fine. I know you had a vinyl rig before, but digital has a way of making us forget.

What vinyl does offer is the ability to achieve unparalleled sonic quality - bettered only by R2R - and it has a way of making you listen to an entire album - front to back, beginning to end and enjoy every song, in the way the artist intended. With CD's, I find I rarely get into the "album" - its a song here, a song there. With vinyl, I get into the entire album and better understand what the artist was trying to achieve.
 
I’ve found in the last 44 years or so of listening to music that some things sound better on CD and some sound better on vinyl. Now, for what I listen too, I’d say a bit over half sounds better on vinyl. I started out on vinyl, got out and came back again. My story is different from most here though in that back in the day when I was all vinyl I never had what I call a “real” turntable, so it left a false taste in my mouth. That said, for some reason I kept most of my vinyl when I went to CD, so I guess I had something in the back of my mind.
I got full force, back into vinyl only about 4 years ago when I picked up my first “real” turntable. I also did some reading and learned about vinyl. When I put that first record on it stunned me and I knew I wanted to get into vinyl again and was ready to commit to doing it right.

Mike and others are absolutely right in saying that it is a labor of love. You have to really want to do vinyl playback. There is tons more maintence and such than any other medium. Even though I wanted to be back into vinyl and commit with the best of intentions, it was not always easy along the road. I had to learn cartridge and turntable set up which was one thing I personally had a rough time with, but I wanted to do vinyl playback strongly enough that I wanted to learn. To this day, I struggle with it, but not really due to techniques as due to really poor eyes. (It’s different for everyone though). There are still things I don’t quite understand such as SRA, but mostly due to lack of experience with it and no need or way to do it on my tables. I use legacy turntables so I’m not dealing with unipivot arms and such. That means for some things like adjusting SRA, I could not do it if I wanted to because on the tables I use there is no way to do it. I just have to hope the manufacture got it close when I set up the rest of it.

All that may sound daunting, but the good news is that the rest of it is pretty easy, just a lot to consider. As Mike pointed out, there is the cleaning, storage, flipping sides, etc. However, it is my opinion that all that is not hard to learn. While most here may disagree with me, I’m also of the opinion that it does not have to cost a lot of money to get into vinyl, especially starting out. If I’m not mistaken, I believe that Michael Fremer is of similar opinion. I would also suggest digging into some articles, videos and such from him. (You Tube is your friend as is Google and Analog Planet).

You will need more than a TT to get into vinyl. You will need good storage, cleaning and maintenance items for both TT and records, etc. At any rate, you don’t have to start off with a $10,000 table, $1000 cartridge, etc. You can do what I did and go with a legacy (vintage) table for anywhere from $50 to $400 or so, if you like that sort of thing or jump straight into a nice $1200 table or something from ClearAudio or what have you. You could also start out with an entry level Project or Rega if you want and everything in between and beyond. Lots of ways to go. Also, if you have never set up a table before, please do what Michael Fremer suggests and don’t start out with a $1000 cartridge or something. Get a $30 or $40 cart. That way if you screw up and damage it you are only out $30. From there, you can step up to a slightly more expensive cartridge and keep working up the ladder if you like. (That is a good way to know how different carts and such behave). Mr. Fremer has also said, that you would be surprised how nice an inexpensive cartridge can sound on a properly set up table. (I heard him say that in a TT setup seminar he did that I caught on You Tube).

As for records costing $70, not always, they can cost that and much more, but they don’t have to. You can go used, but that requires more work and a bit more money because you will need some way to clean them good and learn about all that and eventually need an RCM. Then there is the labor involved and such. If you are going for lots of records, it can save you money and be worth it at the end of the day, but it’s a personal preference and commitment as well and requires lots of patience just as setting up a table does. So if it’s enough just dealing with setting up a table, you may not dig doing the used record route. (I personally find it fun and interesting, not to mention a big money saver, but that’s me and I don’t mind it).
You can go for new records which don’t always cost $70. Depending on what you want, many will cost between $30 and $70, sometimes $20 depending. However, you’ll still need to clean them. Yes, even new records should be cleaned before touching your table. If funds are tight you can go the extreme and set up a manual way using an old cheapo turntable, homebrew and purchased fluids and a modified mini shopvac like I started with. It was fine when I had 30 or 40 records, but started getting carpel tunnel at the 60 record point (now have 400+) because of the vacuum step mostly and that’s partly why I have a VPI machine today. You could start with a $200 Disc Dr or something when you only have a few records, but at some point you’ll want something like a VPI or Okki Nokki or even an AudioDesk or KLAudio unit depending on budget and number of records. It also depends on how fast you accumulate records. If you accumulate fast you may want to skip the cheaper cleaning set ups and jump straight to a VPI or above or what have you. (If you had 1000 records I would jump straight to one of full auto units like the KLAudio, etc. if it were me).

Just saying that you can start out in vinyl for well under $10k if you want, especially if you are not 100% sure. Once you are in and if you find you love it, you can then go as crazy as you like.
All this is just my opinion and personal experience and not in any way the word on the whole thing. Just offering another perspective.

~Eric
 
Lots of good advice above. For myself I've come back to vinyl but I still do CD's and downloads. The truth is I LOVE playing records and tapes. My love for music and all things audiophilic has exploded because of it. Yes I have to get off the couch but it's so worth it.
 
Need help here. My journey has a fork in the road. Do I need to go server or t/t? I'm sick & tired of the roller coaster of cd's etc, is vinyl as good as it gets & can i do it at around $10K for a t/t. Please help .....

a line mag...... and a turntable in kevs house?????? whats going on ??? did i get hit on the head or something.lmao!!!!!
seriously Kev , like mikech said you owe it to your system to demo one since you have the phonostage just sitting there. order a couple records you love , see what happens. if you love it, go nuts with it, spend some money on an awesome vinyl rig and a great phonostage. if its good for you but not all world, get an inexpensive setup with a decent cartridge just for ocassional listening. if you hate it than at least you tried it.
and borrow a tube phonostage to run through the 219ia while your at it.lol.
i for one enjoy the surface noise and occasional pop from vinyl, just isnt music to me without it. but its not for everyone.
 
Here's the deal from my perspective:Even if you have zero LPs and you want to get into vinyl, I don't know if there has ever been a better time. I could argue there are far more choices of tables, arms, and cartridges at all price points and level of quality than at anytime in the history of audio. There is currently so many brand new LPs (both super high quality reissues and new vinyl) available in the market place that you would have to have very deep pockets to go and buy all that is available for sale that interests you. Record cleaners have never been better either which helps elevate the whole experience.

Playing LPs is more work than sitting your ass in your listening chair with your remote in your lap and fingering your way through your music collection without having to get up except to get another beer or drink and occasionally find the bathroom in order to take a hillbilly piss to get rid of the beer or drinks you have been imbibing. Therefore, you want to keep your digital source material and front-end for the times you don't feel like getting up and having the LP setup for when you really want to groove to the music. But if you already know you are lazy, don't bother with analog (and I'm not saying you are lazy because I have no idea. You just have to be honest with yourself).

I for one would not be happy if I only had one source to listen to. If all I had to listen to was PCM digital, I would have got out of this hobby long ago.
 
Thanks for the insights people & Eric, great post. I sense the undertones that are being applied to stop this going nuke & appreciate the thoughtfulness, sure don't want this to turn into a shitfight of one against another.
For me it's about if I did go for a table & wanted to get a very good one that wasn't uber expensive, would the $10k point be a good point to start with the table. I am already onto the cleaner & tools, also the demo part can be done. Would the VPI Classic Signature be a good thing for what I am asking as I know jack about t/t's.
 
The VPI Classic table would be a great place to start.
 
Thanks for the insights people & Eric, great post. I sense the undertones that are being applied to stop this going nuke & appreciate the thoughtfulness, sure don't want this to turn into a shitfight of one against another.
For me it's about if I did go for a table & wanted to get a very good one that wasn't uber expensive, would the $10k point be a good point to start with the table. I am already onto the cleaner & tools, also the demo part can be done. Would the VPI Classic Signature be a good thing for what I am asking as I know jack about t/t's.

I happen to have a great many CDs myself as well. For me it's about the music and while some of what I listen to sounds better on vinyl. I also have some that will never be on vinyl and probably would not sound that good considering the way the recording was done.

If you have everything else lined up and have $10k allocated solely for a table, that is more than a good starting point for anyone just getting into vinyl. I'd say though that perhaps it may be a good idea to look at tables across a price range including ones well under $10k. There are many great tables out there from $1200 to $10K. VPI is a great choice as are many others, such as ClearAudio, etc.
Here's an idea, hop on to Analog Planet and read Michael Fremer's Turntable reviews, good honest reviewer and looks at everything on a turntable. In fact, since you said you don't know jack about turntables and maybe a little less about the whole concept of vinyl than you like, if it were me, I'd start reading up on all the things needed. Turntables, record care, TT set-up (that's a big one), even record buying. Be sure to watch Michael Fremer's TT set up videos too. You'll find them on YouTube. Although he get's a little too deep for me, but only because my tables do not have a couple of the adjustments he goes through, it is still a good watch.

One other thing, the less you spend on the gear without going too far of course, the more left over for......guess......records! Michael Fremer always advises to have money left over for records. Playing vinyl is more about the music than the gear believe it or not. I know with so much to consider for vinyl playback that sounds counter-productive, but it's true none the less.
 
Here's the deal from my perspective:Even if you have zero LPs and you want to get into vinyl, I don't know if there has ever been a better time. I could argue there are far more choices of tables, arms, and cartridges at all price points and level of quality than at anytime in the history of audio. There is currently so many brand new LPs (both super high quality reissues and new vinyl) available in the market place that you would have to have very deep pockets to go and buy all that is available for sale that interests you. Record cleaners have never been better either which helps elevate the whole experience.

Playing LPs is more work than sitting your ass in your listening chair with your remote in your lap and fingering your way through your music collection without having to get up except to get another beer or drink and occasionally find the bathroom in order to take a hillbilly piss to get rid of the beer or drinks you have been imbibing. Therefore, you want to keep your digital source material and front-end for the times you don't feel like getting up and having the LP setup for when you really want to groove to the music. But if you already know you are lazy, don't bother with analog (and I'm not saying you are lazy because I have no idea. You just have to be honest with yourself).

I for one would not be happy if I only had one source to listen to. If all I had to listen to was PCM digital, I would have got out of this hobby long ago.

Yes. There were a lot of turntables back when vinyl was king and pretty much all there was, but believe it or not, not quite as many as there are today. Sure, they were less expensive back then, but not if you take into account the economy and wages of the time. It's the same today, but the difference is that there really are more choices and they cover the spectrum of budgets.

Oh gods, me too, if all there was were only MP3s or streaming or digital downloads, I would have no gear or music. I would not want it.
I find many CDs to sound sterile as well, but I'll give at least a credit point or two for the fact that at least they are still tactile and of course some credit for those CDs that were actually well done...there are a few I have. (I'm not a CD lightweight, I have about 950 counting a few digital vinyl conversions - redbook/lossless I've done for portability and just because).
 
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