I can't believe how much better TT setup is now for me!

M

MusicDirector

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I can't believe I've never used an arc protractor until today!
I set up my Pioneer PL510A with a new cart today and used my new Accutrak arc protractor for the first time. OMG! What the hell have I been doing these past 4 or 5 years?!!
This thing not only made life easier and cut time, but it also instills lots more confidence...at least for me. I had the TT set up in less than 25 minutes, which is a speed record for me by about 40 minutes. The arc protractor makes it so much nicer and so easy to use. :yahoo1:

Way easier than what I was doing. I used to use a "universal" baerwald that came with my Shure cart for everything. Took me 20 minutes just going back and forth between null points and still wondered if I got it fully correct or within less than .25% at least. That's after mount the cart which is a 10 minute job for me, sometimes 15. Then there is the rest of the procedures: (if table is already balanced),tone arm balance, cart leveling (I forgot the dumb acronym) and tracking force and antiskate....The whole process would take me at least an hour. Afterwards, I would still wonder if I got it right or good enough even if I didn't hear anything off.

Today, when I was done, I knew much more that I had it right and then put on a test record and a warped classical record just to really see. The thing didn't even wince once. It even tracked the warped record perfectly, no anomalies heard with my ears anyway (which are far better than my eyes).
I'm just tickled at the confidence the protractor instilled by showing me three ways that everything was aligned. The way this thing aligned the cart and stylus even allowed me to back off the anti-skate some.

Why didn't I start using these things much earlier? I guess I enjoy suffering or something equally silly.

Anyway, I just had to come on and say woohoo!

~Eric

Now I'm gonna go check my Denon with a custom protractor I got for it as well.
 
dlb2 said:
Good news Eric. How does it sound!



Sent from my mobile.
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It sounds fantastic, yes better than before. I hear a small, but definite difference even accounting for the fact that it's a different cart then the one before, but the stylus shape and brand and everything is the same, so I think setup has a bit to do with it. It sounded good before as well, but I have zero confidence in my turntable setup. Now, this time I have a little bit of confidence thanks to this new tool with it's built-in checking by design. (New to me).
I have not had much time to listen yet though. I'll so some more listening tomorrow as the cart has to break-in anyway.
 
Nothing, everything. It is still sweet music. :) ...It was just digital humor Eric; don't sweat the small stuff.

I'm glad you like your new analog rig (protractor setup, better tracking, ...); you give me new invigoration. And I mean it.
 
Just checked my Denon TT with it's protractor and I was only about 2-3mm off. I didn't hear anything wrong and not bad considering, but I adjusted anyway and just those 2 or 3mm have made a tiny, but slightly detectable difference! Wow!:celebrate008_2: Sounds incredible now, even more than before!:audiophile:
 
Matt715 said:
Sweet! I'm going to have to check into one of those.
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If you don't already have something you really like in protractors, these Accutraks are $50 and worth every penny.
Ken is a good guy to work with too. Google Accutrak protractors and hit his website. If he doesn't have your table listed just let him know and all you have to do is supply the pivot to spindle distance and he will make a custom protractor.
He makes them out of a thick vinyl/plastic and puts some sort of lexan like (could be lexan) coating on the top. What this does is provides a way to just slide your stylus across the arc without worry about damage at all. No eyeballing involved just set the needle straight down in the protractor and lightly slide across.
He offers two thicknesses, but I recommend you get the standard thickness, the other is the thickness of an LP, but I find that would be too thick and throws things off on certain tables.
 
MusicDirector said:
If you don't already have something you really like in protractors, these Accutraks are $50 and worth every penny.
Ken is a good guy to work with too. Google Accutrak protractors and hit his website. If he doesn't have your table listed just let him know and all you have to do is supply the pivot to spindle distance and he will make a custom protractor.
He makes them out of a thick vinyl/plastic and puts some sort of lexan like (could be lexan) coating on the top. What this does is provides a way to just slide your stylus across the arc without worry about damage at all. No eyeballing involved just set the needle straight down in the protractor and lightly slide across.
He offers two thicknesses, but I recommend you get the standard thickness, the other is the thickness of an LP, but I find that would be too thick and throws things off on certain tables.
Click to expand...
It would seem logical to me to have the protractor be the same height as an LP, since you want the alignment to be set at the height the arm will actually be tracking at. I'd be curious to know why you think that would be too thick and throw off proper alignment. I realize that different pressings are on even thicker vinyl which will align a bit differently, but I'm not clear why you would want to align with a protractor that is thinner than a standard LP. Maybe I'm missing something since I haven't used an Accutrak protractor myself.
 
audio.bill said:
It would seem logical to me to have the protractor be the same height as an LP, since you want the alignment to be set at the height the arm will actually be tracking at. I'd be curious to know why you think that would be too thick and throw off proper alignment. I realize that different pressings are on even thicker vinyl which will align a bit differently, but I'm not clear why you would want to align with a protractor that is thinner than a standard LP. Maybe I'm missing something since I haven't used an Accutrak protractor myself.
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Well, Jeff could explain it far far better than I could, but it depends on the table and arm. It gets far too complicated for me. If the arm is adjustable to height than it may not matter one ioda. My arms are not adjustable that way, well my Denon arm is, but I think it best not to mess around in my case, so I just went the same across the board.
 
audio.bill said:
It would seem logical to me to have the protractor be the same height as an LP, since you want the alignment to be set at the height the arm will actually be tracking at. I'd be curious to know why you think that would be too thick and throw off proper alignment. I realize that different pressings are on even thicker vinyl which will align a bit differently, but I'm not clear why you would want to align with a protractor that is thinner than a standard LP. Maybe I'm missing something since I haven't used an Accutrak protractor myself.
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Ditto what Bill just wrote. And....

Why in the world would you drop the arm/stylus down onto "anything" no matter how slick or rough it might be and then push the arm/cart assembly sideways thru it's arc with the fully intended tracking force even if it's only 2 or so grams? Doing so with anything other than a $39 cartridge with a cantilever made of #2 steel rebar could cause damage to cantilever or stylus, no? Did you you have an actual diamond stylus left after you scraped it sideways multiple times? Sandpaper is sandpaper, friction is friction.
 
This sounds like something I should get. I have been setting up cartridges by ear by trial and error, which is truly a lengthy process. I bookmarked the page for future reference. Thanks.
 
MikeCh said:
Ditto what Bill just wrote. And....

Why in the world would you drop the arm/stylus down onto "anything" no matter how slick or rough it might be and then push the arm/cart assembly sideways thru it's arc with the fully intended tracking force even if it's only 2 or so grams? Doing so with anything other than a $39 cartridge with a cantilever made of #2 steel rebar could cause damage to cantilever or stylus, no? Did you you have an actual diamond stylus left after you scraped it sideways multiple times? Sandpaper is sandpaper, friction is friction.
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Come on, for one thing you don't do it with the fully intended tracking force. The table is disengaged and disconnected and unplugged, so you don't even have anti-skate at the time, nothing is engaged. Maybe I miss-spoke a bit, I apologize. You don't purposely slide it across the surface, you (push from the side or hold it just above)glide it very slowly, just above, if it contacts the surface your still ok. You don't do it multiple times, you do it twice. Where does it say you vigorously rub the needle back and forth in the instructions, I don't see it? The cartridge actually glides along just barely touching if at all. When I say "drop" I don't mean it literally, you should know that. These protractors are designed for this. Jeff over at AVSolutions uses them in just this way on $3000 carts/styli. The grooves of a record are 1000 times rougher than the surface of these protractors and one spec of dust or dirt can take out your needle during regular play and there is a hell of a lot more friction just playing a record, you also have heat.

All I can say is the diamond stylus is there with no more wear to it then before. If it weren't then I'm not listening to records except maybe in my imagination.

I'm not saying this is the one and only tool and that everyone must set up their tables this way. All I'm saying is how much this tool has helped me and folks can set up their tables any way and with anything they like. So stop putting words in my mouth hoping to pick an argument. Let people enjoy what they have.

For reference: Standard - (definition) approximately 0.7 mm thick.

Thick - A thick protractor is the same as a standard protractor but with an additional layer of backing material added to bring the overall thickness closer
to that of a standard pressed LP. A thick protractor is approximately 1.4 mm thick.

Instructions: Information - AccuTrak Arc Protractors Cartridge Alignment Made Easy

This is all I'm saying about this now, the thread is closed as far as I'm concerned.
 
MusicDirector said:
Come on, for one thing you don't do it with the fully intended tracking force. The table is disengaged and disconnected and unplugged, so you don't even have anti-skate at the time, nothing is engaged. Maybe I miss-spoke a bit, I apologize. You don't purposely slide it across the surface, you (push from the side or hold it just above)glide it very slowly, just above, if it contacts the surface your still ok. You don't do it multiple times, you do it twice. Where does it say you vigorously rub the needle back and forth in the instructions, I don't see it? The cartridge actually glides along just barely touching if at all. When I say "drop" I don't mean it literally, you should know that. These protractors are designed for this. Jeff over at AVSolutions uses them in just this way on $3000 carts/styli. The grooves of a record are 1000 times rougher than the surface of these protractors and one spec of dust or dirt can take out your needle during regular play and there is a hell of a lot more friction just playing a record, you also have heat.

All I can say is the diamond stylus is there with no more wear to it then before. If it weren't then I'm not listening to records except maybe in my imagination.

I'm not saying this is the one and only tool and that everyone must set up their tables this way. All I'm saying is how much this tool has helped me and folks can set up their tables any way and with anything they like. So stop putting words in my mouth hoping to pick an argument. Let people enjoy what they have.

For reference: Standard - (definition) approximately 0.7 mm thick.

Thick - A thick protractor is the same as a standard protractor but with an additional layer of backing material added to bring the overall thickness closer
to that of a standard pressed LP. A thick protractor is approximately 1.4 mm thick.

Instructions: Information - AccuTrak Arc Protractors Cartridge Alignment Made Easy

This is all I'm saying about this now, the thread is closed as far as I'm concerned.
Click to expand...


Relax Eric, I'm not denouncing the protractor, in fact I will likely pick one up myself.

From your own words in two different threads:

"What this does is provides a way to just slide your stylus across the arc without worry about damage at all. No eyeballing involved just set the needle straight down in the protractor and lightly slide across."

--and--

"They have a special top coat, like a thin lexan material (might even be lexan) that allows you to place the stylus directly on the protractor to glide it along the arc without worrying about doing harm."

When I read these comments (and maybe I'm alone), it reads like you are placing the stylus in the DOWN position and sliding it across the slick surface of the protractor DRAGGING it across. If that's not so, I guess I'm not reading your procedure correctly and my apologies.
 
MikeCh said:
Relax Eric, I'm not denouncing the protractor, in fact I will likely pick one up myself.

From your own words in two different threads:

"What this does is provides a way to just slide your stylus across the arc without worry about damage at all. No eyeballing involved just set the needle straight down in the protractor and lightly slide across."

--and--

"They have a special top coat, like a thin lexan material (might even be lexan) that allows you to place the stylus directly on the protractor to glide it along the arc without worrying about doing harm."

When I read these comments (and maybe I'm alone), it reads like you are placing the stylus in the DOWN position and sliding it across the slick surface of the protractor DRAGGING it across. If that's not so, I guess I'm not reading your procedure correctly and my apologies.
Click to expand...

Well, like I said, I didn't explain it very well. The instructions I posted do a better job and those who have been using this protractor for a long time do an even better job. Your not really "dragging" it, but it does touch at points. Maybe the correct term is "rest". I posted or linked the instructions so you and anyone else could read them. Like I said, it's far less rough than a record groove, but your not putting any real pressure on the needle. It's very hard for me to explain as I am not even near an imaginary expert, let alone a real one. I haven't set up hundreds of tables like everyone else here. All I know is the way I was doing set up of my tables had far higher risk of damage.

Anyone who wants to use one of these needs to talk to Ken Willis (the maker) or Jeff at AVSolutions, NOT to me!
I don't purchase or believe in expensive carts myself. (In fact, I have a 2M Bronze that I view as extremely expensive personally and I'm not all that impressed by it. It does the job well, but I feel it's nothing a $200 cart can't do. The eventual replacement will be something around half the cost of the Bronze or less. The Bronze has at least another 1600 hours to go in it or thereabouts). I generally stick in the $50 to $100 range for my carts, but that's just me.

I'm done with this, said my piece. Time to move on.
 
I'll chime in hear since my name was mentioned.....The protractors have a ultra smooth surface, it will not tear up your stylus moving it a along the surface a hair when your trying to hit the mark or if you were to accidentally bump the cartridge or what ever......I'm talking a nudge here, or just on the edge or outside the mark area NOT the entire arc. Most likely no different when your at the end of the last cut and the stylus is cruising the lead out.....
 
A/V Solutions said:
I'll chime in hear since my name was mentioned.....The protractors have a ultra smooth surface, it will not tear up your stylus moving it a along the surface a hair when your trying to hit the mark or if you were to accidentally bump the cartridge or what ever......I'm talking a nudge here, or just on the edge or outside the mark area NOT the entire arc. Most likely no different when your at the end of the last cut and the stylus is cruising the lead out.....
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Thanks Jeff. I should have just said "you rest the needle in 4 places" and been done, but no, I have to go and be all conceptual and abstract. I've been this way my whole life. In grade school the teachers used to think there was something wrong with me because I understood the work, but would be abstract or conceptual about it which was mis-interpreted for "imagination" sometimes. While it holds no surprise that I did well in theoretical physics class later in life, it is still a problem and unfortunately, it's the way I'm wired. That's why I do not write instruction manuals.

Ironically, while I was able to just lower the needle to the four spots on my Pioneer being a manual table, my Denon was the challenge. Once you disengage that guy it wants to float around the room. I had a time keeping the needle from bouncing up and down lightly and slowly trying to keep it on the protractor, so I had to very lightly and very slowly nudge it along the surface. Not all the way, but I had to start some distance from the point I wanted to be at and then let it settle. Again, no ill effects and it plays wonderfully.
 
sweet, im glad your all setup nicely eric. i check my cartridge every once in awhile on the protractor it never goes anywhere, but might as well use it to check. and knowing its as perfect as you can get it without using a computer program is well worth $50.
jeff told me to buy the accutrak and im glad i listened.
 
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