I am no more an audiophile !

Double-D said:
Jerome.......Very interesting topic. I don't consider myself an audiophile. I think of myself as an audio enthusiast. By that I mean nearly all things relating to the reproduction of voice and musical instruments capture my interest. I have an equal enthusiasm for the sound of live voices, musical instruments, and sound in general. I pray my ears never fail me. They bring me so much joy.

My quest for the correct audio reproduction equipment has been a long and winding road but I have always known what I like, the purity of sound whether live or recorded. In my life I have owned and sampled a long list of audio components, loudspeakers, and assorted ancillary items in an effort to bring that pureness of sound into my home. I am confident I have achieved my goal. I know this because I no longer lust for new equipment, rather I desire to listen to music on the sound systems I have assembled. I look forward to enjoying the sound of voices, musical instruments, and performances. I am able to enjoy my audio systems in the same way that I enjoy sitting on a bench along one of my property's paths and delighting in the sound of wind rustling the leaves in the tree tops. I don't ask why or how the sound is made, I simply savor the experience and pleasure it brings. That's why I think of myself as an audio enthusiast. The intensity of my enjoyment centers on the sound, not the equipment. My eagerness to listen to music is greater now than it has ever been. For me, that is the essence of enthusiasm and why I consider myself an audio enthusiast rather than an audiophile. This does not mean I no longer appreciate the beauty and engineering excellence of fine audio equipment because I most certainly do. It is simply no longer the center of my attention.

I'm not trying to say I have never been a crazed audiophile because that would be a lie. In the past I have relentlessly searched for more and more, whether it was higher resolution, wider dynamics, darker backgrounds, thunderous volume, infinitesimally low distortion, and so on. The list was long and onerous. There were times when I literally drove myself crazy being unable to disconnect from the sound of the equipment. I could not hear the music for the noises I continuously tried to find and identify. Music had simply become an endless test tone that served as a reference for policing the sound. Where is the pleasure in that? There is none.

I am so pleased with the audio systems I have today. I haven't changed anything of significance in a few years because I no longer feel driven to find something that is lacking. The stress of my gear quest has vanished. Music now reigns supreme. This doesn't mean that audio gear no longer interests me or that I may never be inclined to alter or add something in the future. It merely means those activities are no longer the focus of my listening experience.
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Very interesting Dan.

Your experience mirrors mine.
Once you set with system(s) that allow you to enjoy the music, you do forget about the gear, the tubes, the cables and you focus truly on the music.
 
Shadowfax said:
Jerome, please send me all that HE gear you will no longer be listening to :)

I find myself listening to my secondary system more than my main. Put on Pandora and just enjoy all the great tracks it throws my way.
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Anything that reminds us that we are primarily here for music and not gear is worthy. I like Spotify a lot.
 
jahjahlove said:
steve and Dan, you are two MC2301 owners and hold the same speech: the search has found an end... well I just wish Mcintosh was not double the price in France than it is in the USA...
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David....

Did you hear the 2301's ?
I owned them for almost 3 years. They are very good amplifiers. But I do not regret selling them at all. Not one second. Even at the very low price I sold them ! ( 10k euros for the pair ! ).

You seem to consider that vintage audio is valuable only for people with limited budget and that modern high end audio goes way beyond vintage gear. As I said, this is not my experience.
Thanks G., I have the means to buy any high end or very high end gear on the market. I could buy Magico Q7 speakers with a full Soulution set up for example. Thanks G., my ears dot not agree at all !!

I chose my gear by ear. Not because of fame or price. I am only interested in audio reproduction. Not in attitude.

The 225 gives less deep bass and bass control than the mighty 2301's. And its resolution is not the last word either. But the mids and highs are in an other league. It is much more musical and connects me much deeper with the music than the 2301's. The 225 just sounds much more like real lifelike music to my ears than the 2301's. It still impresses me after years of owning while I got just bored after 3 years with the sound of the 2301's. My Shindo CCQ's were just like a breath of fresh air when I got them compared to the 2301's. I kept both monoblocks side by side near my speakers during one year.

Now if your speakers are not too power hungry, you should try Halgorythme if you did not have the chance yet. The double parallel SET 1605 power amps ( 2 x 48W in class A) cost around 9000 euros for the pair. That is one third of the price of a pair of 2301's. But at that price, you get 4 blocks (isolated power supplies ) handmade point to point jewels made by a music lover ( Cedric owns about 15000 vinyls ! ) and a musician. They will bring you miles ahead of the 2301's in terms of, well, everything. Resolution, transparency, delicacy, dynamics, timbres, deep bass and high treble extension....
I would be an american, I would not be happy about the 2301's price in my country. I would be sad not being able to get Halgorythme amps easily !

But yes, the 2301's do impress visitors. Much more than the tiny 225 right ? The Halgorythme are not famous neither they are very sexy although I really like their design. But they are made for Music with the M.

( PS : pas "d'écoute à distance" chez moi. J'achète. Je vis avec. Je prends le temps de comparer.)
 
Jerome W said:
Anything that reminds us that we are primarily here for music and not gear is worthy. I like Spotify a lot.
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So, Jerome, let me summarize. Based on your own words you're a dentist with mediocre talent and none such for any musical practice yourself. You prefer old, cheap equipment to new, expensive gear (ever thought those two criteria might be correlated) and you are continuously posting on an audiophile forum how not audiophile you are. Isn't that funny?

While others are discussing how to optimize their analogue setup, room acoustics, power management or getting a better tonality out of tubes or class A gear, you are suggesting Spotify 96-320 kbps streaming and Ogg Vobis encoding is suitable to enjoy music.

On one thing I definitely have to agree with you: you are not an audiophile. I would argue you never have been and you don't even know what that means. Of course, the truth is in the eye of the beholder.

Ever thought getting off the Interweb and picking up gardening or something? Flowers grow for free in public places and you can enjoy them as much as you like. And you don't have to claim to be a florist. I would just not go to a gardening convention proclaiming you are a florist no more - might raise some eyebrows.


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Kuoppis said:
So, Jerome, let me summarize. Based on your own words you're a dentist with mediocre talent and none such for any musical practice yourself. You prefer old, cheap equipment to new, expensive gear (ever thought those two criteria might be correlated) and you are continuously posting on an audiophile forum how not audiophile you are. Isn't that funny?

While others are discussing how to optimize their analogue setup, room acoustics, power management or getting a better tonality out of tubes or class A gear, you are suggesting Spotify 96-320 kbps streaming and Ogg Vobis encoding is suitable to enjoy music.

On one thing I definitely have to agree with you: you are not an audiophile. I would argue you never have been and you don't even know what that means. Of course, the truth is in the eye of the beholder.

Ever thought getting off the Interweb and picking up gardening or something? Flowers grow for free in public places and you can enjoy them as much as you like. And you don't have to claim to be a florist. I would just not go to a gardening convention proclaiming you are a florist no more - might raise some eyebrows.


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Click to expand...

I will comment only the first lines even they are way off topic because you pick my own words and give them the sense that you want to. The rest does not worth it.

I am not a dentist. I am an orthodontist.
I did not say that I have no talent. If that was the case, I would not have the amount of patients that I have and I would not be invited to give lectures in international scientific meetings. I said that I am not gifted with my hands but hopefully in today's world the great orthodontists are no more the ones with gold fingers but the ones with smart and wise minds.

And yes. One who does enjoy Spotify in 320k ( who said that I cannot make the difference between Spotify and high def digital ? ) cannot be an audiophile. Just a simple and modest music lover.

I am blessed for not having a narrow mind like yours !
 
Yes, Jerome, I get it. A Big Mac's a Big Mac, but the French call it 'Le Bigue Maque'.


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Now you're killing me, do they for real? I was just throwing in a quote from popular media.

OK, you won. This just made my day. Thank you Jerome, I'll be giggling the whole day about this.


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Kuoppis said:
Yes, Jerome, I get it. A Big Mac's a Big Mac, but the French call it 'Le Bigue Maque'.


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Click to expand...

Big Macs will kill you. A good German sausage with sauerkraut from Bavaria will not.

I think you have lost the plot of the thread though, Herr.
 
Jerome W said:
David....

Did you hear the 2301's ?
I owned them for almost 3 years. They are very good amplifiers. But I do not regret selling them at all. Not one second. Even at the very low price I sold them ! ( 10k euros for the pair ! ).

You seem to consider that vintage audio is valuable only for people with limited budget and that modern high end audio goes way beyond vintage gear. As I said, this is not my experience.
Thanks G., I have the means to buy any high end or very high end gear on the market. I could buy Magico Q7 speakers with a full Soulution set up for example. Thanks G., my ears dot not agree at all !!

I chose my gear by ear. Not because of fame or price. I am only interested in audio reproduction. Not in attitude.

The 225 gives less deep bass and bass control than the mighty 2301's. And its resolution is not the last word either. But the mids and highs are in an other league. It is much more musical and connects me much deeper with the music than the 2301's. The 225 just sounds much more like real lifelike music to my ears than the 2301's. It still impresses me after years of owning while I got just bored after 3 years with the sound of the 2301's. My Shindo CCQ's were just like a breath of fresh air when I got them compared to the 2301's. I kept both monoblocks side by side near my speakers during one year.

Now if your speakers are not too power hungry, you should try Halgorythme if you did not have the chance yet. The double parallel SET 1605 power amps ( 2 x 48W in class A) cost around 9000 euros for the pair. That is one third of the price of a pair of 2301's. But at that price, you get 4 blocks (isolated power supplies ) handmade point to point jewels made by a music lover ( Cedric owns about 15000 vinyls ! ) and a musician. They will bring you miles ahead of the 2301's in terms of, well, everything. Resolution, transparency, delicacy, dynamics, timbres, deep bass and high treble extension....
I would be an american, I would not be happy about the 2301's price in my country. I would be sad not being able to get Halgorythme amps easily !

But yes, the 2301's do impress visitors. Much more than the tiny 225 right ? The Halgorythme are not famous neither they are very sexy although I really like their design. But they are made for Music with the M.

( PS : pas "d'écoute à distance" chez moi. J'achète. Je vis avec. Je prends le temps de comparer.)
Click to expand...

Jerome,

I am not STATING that vintage is ONLY or absolutly for low budget. I am sorry If I sound to harsh on this... It was not the point. a ML20.5 a 6000 € is not cheap peice of gear (for the non investing 150 k€ in his gear man).
On the other hand I heard (at my modest level) a Sansui 555 (at 500 €) outperforming a stello AI500 at 3500 €.
I have been "educated" byt early mcintosh fanatics... I almost bought MC30. I also almost bought a ML7 (preamp), and I am still looking with greed onto ML 20.5 or 20.6....
BUT I bought a BP17 because of trouble associated with vintage and the difficulties to find a good repair guy here in France (I tried 5 of them!)
and also because noise and distorsion were minimum. I was sick of blowing from the tubes in my compressions.

I think its the design of the circuit that makes the sound before the componenents. So good design could have been done (and they surely did) in the past.
I also agrees with Seve that modern companies put their pride more on business results than on build quality.

So as I said earlier: good modern companies with modern components well implemented in a good design MUST technically outperform any vintage gear, just like any modern car outperform (almost) any vintage car. TECHNICALLY.

Now as I said also one might prefer the sound (with its imperfections) of vintage. I surely do with my MC275, don't i?

I haven't heard the 2301. I am not suprised if they do not sound as natural as a MC225. I felt this with the C22 versus the C220; I am suprised you liked it more, cause It is the C220 in the first place that made me turn to vintage! as a counter-reaction, if you wish....

On the other hand I could not put more than 20 or 25 k€ in my gear... this is my limit for this hobby, not by the bank but by my own reason...
 
jahjahlove said:
Jerome,

I am not STATING that vintage is ONLY or absolutly for low budget. I am sorry If I sound to harsh on this... It was not the point. a ML20.5 a 6000 € is not cheap peice of gear (for the non investing 150 k€ in his gear man).
On the other hand I heard (at my modest level) a Sansui 555 (at 500 €) outperforming a stello AI500 at 3500 €.
I have been "educated" byt early mcintosh fanatics... I almost bought MC30. I also almost bought a ML7 (preamp), and I am still looking with greed onto ML 20.5 or 20.6....
BUT I bought a BP17 because of trouble associated with vintage and the difficulties to find a good repair guy here in France (I tried 5 of them!)
and also because noise and distorsion were minimum. I was sick of blowing from the tubes in my compressions.

I think its the design of the circuit that makes the sound before the componenents. So good design could have been done (and they surely did) in the past.
I also agrees with Seve that modern companies put their pride more on business results than on build quality.

So as I said earlier: good modern companies with modern components well implemented in a good design MUST technically outperform any vintage gear, just like any modern car outperform (almost) any vintage car. TECHNICALLY.

Now as I said also one might prefer the sound (with its imperfections) of vintage. I surely do with my MC275, don't i?

I haven't heard the 2301. I am not suprised if they do not sound as natural as a MC225. I felt this with the C22 versus the C220; I am suprised you liked it more, cause It is the C220 in the first place that made me turn to vintage! as a counter-reaction, if you wish....

On the other hand I could not put more than 20 or 25 k€ in my gear... this is my limit for this hobby, not by the bank but by my own reason...
Click to expand...

I guess that you used the C220 with the stock tubes. With Nos tubes, the 220 is a very good preamp. Much more balanced and transparent than the C22CE.

I do not agree when you say that modern gear will outperform vintage gear technically because there is just no will from the manufacturers to do so.
Yes, in theory, you are right. Not in the facts.
One example. Talk with Cédric on the effect of PCB's on the sound compared to point to point wiring. PCB's do alter the sound. Do you think that Cédric and Shindo and Leben and others solder during hours just for the pleasure of soldering ? They do because point to point wiring gives better sound. Period.
And this is probably the reason why Lampizator did not want to send me a nudie pic of their amp. If there is a PCB in it, the whole speech about "hand made" is biased.

Do you think that McIntosh, ARC, CJ and others ignore that ? They know it. They just are in a productivist and economic logic. Mass production is not compatible with point to point wiring.
An other example. Do you remember the time when a washing machine, a refrigerator, a car, could last for 20 years with minimal maintenance and no problem ? Are you seriously thinking that modern stuff is better built than the one made in the sixties ?
I got 2 problems in 3 years with the 2301's.
I got one very serious problem with the 501's.
I never had any issue with my 225 and my Halgorythme.

Yes, of course, we could build better gear today than the one we were building 40 years ago. We just DO NOT WANT IT.
 
Semantics are boring. Just sit back and enjoy the music on whatever system that makes it meaningful to you.
 
I find it an interesting question, whether new technology actually really necessarily needs to sound better. Maybe not necessarily so. A few examples:

1) Charles Hansen of Ayre bought at some point all certain type out-of-production Toshiba JFETs he could find, because they sounded better in his view in his 'xe MP' products.
2) Musical Fidelity has just released a line of products based on Nuvistors and bought for this purpose all the remaining mounting bridges for these things they could find.
3) Tube lovers will be able to tell stories about the benefits of NOS tubes.

What makes vintage products more difficult from an audiophile perspective, is that pre-internet there is less information available about the gear, so self-study is considerably harder and knowledge has to spread through word of mouth or fora. And in many cases it is very hard to test anything otherwise than by listening to someone else's set.

I am personally not into this space, but in Europe there are a couple of retailers specializing on that segment, e.g. Springair in Germany.


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Digging the banter between you two--just don't start another Franco Prussian war:P!

I'll get my little ditty in before in case--

Yes those unobtainium Tosh JFETS are sonically a revelation --I have them in my Phono Stage

The story that Charles snavelled the lot is legendary-ha!

Ok chaps-- continue

Bruce
 
Bruce said:
Digging the banter between you two--just don't start another Franco Prussian war:P!

I'll get my little ditty in before in case--

Yes those unobtainium Tosh JFETS are sonically a revelation --I have them in my Phono Stage

The story that Charles snavelled the lot is legendary-ha!

Ok chaps-- continue

Bruce
Click to expand...

Well... France's army is not a big one but German's one is a joke and thanks G., the US and the Russians for that !
Tsahal would eat Germany in 3 days. Times have changed. Like for the quality of audio gear.
 
Jerome W said:
I guess that you used the C220 with the stock tubes. With Nos tubes, the 220 is a very good preamp. Much more balanced and transparent than the C22CE.


I do not agree when you say that modern gear will outperform vintage gear technically because there is just no will from the manufacturers to do so.
Yes, in theory, you are right. Not in the facts.
One example. Talk with Cédric on the effect of PCB's on the sound compared to point to point wiring. PCB's do alter the sound.
Do you think that McIntosh, ARC, CJ and others ignore that ? They know it. They just are in a productivist and economic logic. Mass production is not compatible with point to point wiring.


An other example. Do you remember the time when a washing machine, a refrigerator, a car, could last for 20 years with minimal maintenance and no problem ? Are you seriously thinking that modern stuff is better built than the one made in the sixties ?
I got 2 problems in 3 years with the 2301's.
I got one very serious problem with the 501's.
I never had any issue with my 225 and my Halgorythme.


Yes, of course, we could build better gear today than the one we were building 40 years ago. We just DO NOT WANT IT.
Click to expand...

No I didn't, I stuck with stock tubes. More balanced and transparent, yes I agree, but dull, less dynamic, and most of all less musicality... we should need to listen together... I red on a french forum a guy finding the C22CE soft... well mine is not soft at all... could it be that two different units sound so different ? because of technical issues (different parts replacement ?) I mean not by production ...

Ok for point to point wiring and mass production... BUT another ewample (to change from amp to speakers): the JBL M2 is the daughter of the 4430. The major adavance on the 4430 was the wave guide (bottom cheek), and so is the waveguide a patented one for the M2. Now both have been designed via the means of the time, and the M2's benefit from modern computer analysis in 3D, not just measurement tools. If one consider the waveguide and the compression are working together to produce the mids and Highs, it is critical (I mean its not just a super tweeter)... Same for active crossover with room correction, versus passive crossover with all the switch and potentiometers that go with it to "finely" tune the speaker to the room.

That s why I bought Bryston me friend....20 years warranty...and a good after sales... not the ML7... I have transparency, almost a straight line, but with a digital volume control and 20 years warranty... Ho! I already mentioned that, didn't I ?

Once again I DO AGREE ON THIS TOTALLY....
 
I was sure that you kept the stock tubes. Big mistake.

I heard 2 different C22 with my 225.
The CE and the original one, beautifully restored. I also owned David Manley's own MX110.
All these preamps put a thick cover on the drivers of the speakers. Boring and very far from lifelike music.
I now stay away from McIntosh vintage preamps.
I would not say the same with ARC vintage preamps. Stunning.
 
Jerome W said:
Well... France's army is not a big one but German's one is a joke and thanks G., the US and the Russians for that !
Tsahal would eat Germany in 3 days. Times have changed. Like for the quality of audio gear.
Click to expand...

Well, must have kicked you where it hurt. Sorry for that :).

But good war mongering on the German army and agreed on the audio gear. Unfortunately though I'm not German...

Vive Le Bigue Maque!


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Kuoppis said:
So, Jerome, let me summarize. Based on your own words you're a dentist with mediocre talent and none such for any musical practice yourself. You prefer old, cheap equipment to new, expensive gear (ever thought those two criteria might be correlated) and you are continuously posting on an audiophile forum how not audiophile you are. Isn't that funny?

While others are discussing how to optimize their analogue setup, room acoustics, power management or getting a better tonality out of tubes or class A gear, you are suggesting Spotify 96-320 kbps streaming and Ogg Vobis encoding is suitable to enjoy music.

Ever thought getting off the Interweb and picking up gardening or something? Flowers grow for free in public places and you can enjoy them as much as you like. And you don't have to claim to be a florist. I would just not go to a gardening convention proclaiming you are a florist no more - might raise some eyebrows.
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Click to expand...

AOUCH ! Sorry my countryfellowman I have to PLUS THIS....

and sorry to all of you for this conceptual mess...
one reason I come to US forums is that it seems people here cannot converse without arguing...
One cannot say something good about a piece of gear without being accused of working for the brand undercover...

Not mentioning that these anticapitalistic declarations might not be welcomed by the site "entertainers" (buy ! buy ! buy!)

Ha! and also sorry for the MC 2301's owners'... you know just what to do, now!: sale them and buy a 225 !
 
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