How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Network

Re: How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Netwok

mep said:
Both my Roon Nucleus+ and my HiFi Rose 150B have ethernet connections. Both plug into my router and that is all the cables I use for my streaming aside from the ethernet connection from the wall that runs to the router.
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I don't think your Roon Nucleus+ includes a DAC? If not, connecting to the overwhelming majority of DACs currently available will require a conversion to USB at some point (typically at the output of the Nucleus+). I don't know that a high quality USB output qualifies as a digital dingleberry, although the tinkerers at audiophilestyle.com have found measurable (and perhaps audible; who knows?) differences between the many USB output boards available to those who build servers.
 
Re: How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Netwok

rbbert said:
I don't think your Roon Nucleus+ includes a DAC? If not, connecting to the overwhelming majority of DACs currently available will require a conversion to USB at some point (typically at the output of the Nucleus+). I don't know that a high quality USB output qualifies as a digital dingleberry, although the tinkerers at audiophilestyle.com have found measurable (and perhaps audible; who knows?) differences between the many USB output boards available to those who build servers.
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Of course my Roon Nucleus+ doesn't include a DAC. It is the Roon core and it connects to my HiFi Rose 150B over the network router which they are both plugged into. It's the same way my Roon Nucleus+ connected to my PS Audio DSJ.
 
Re: How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Netwok

IME the network router is a much more likely trouble spot than the Ethernet to USB conversion. YMMV.
 
Re: How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Netwok

rbbert said:
I don't think your Roon Nucleus+ includes a DAC? If not, connecting to the overwhelming majority of DACs currently available will require a conversion to USB at some point (typically at the output of the Nucleus+). I don't know that a high quality USB output qualifies as a digital dingleberry, although the tinkerers at audiophilestyle.com have found measurable (and perhaps audible; who knows?) differences between the many USB output boards available to those who build servers.
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His Rose includes a DAC ( ES9038PRO)

The way I look at this ( Ethernet ) is it all begins with your ISP, the quality of your installation of the internet service to your home and in your home, your cable modem and your router. If any of those sucks, your service regardless of dingleberry will not be up to par. Just my opinion.
 
Re: How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Netwok

CPP said:
...His Rose includes a DAC ( ES9038PRO)...
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Yes, which is why I limited my comment to the Roon Nucleus+. Combined server/streamer/DACs avoid the necessity of USB conversion, but I think that most audiophiles are still using separate server/streamers connected by USB to DAC (with or without an additional conversion to fiber for DACs that accept that); AES/EBU and S/PDIF are also used. My point was that Ethernet to USB conversion is very unlikely to be a trouble spot, although the specific hardware used may well affect sound quality.

You can also take a look at some of the topics on connecting a Lumin to your network and Puma Cat's topic of different fiber cables; there are certainly potential problems there but nothing mysterious.
 
Re: How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Netwok

rbbert said:
Yes, which is why I limited my comment to the Roon Nucleus+. Combined server/streamer/DACs avoid the necessity of USB conversion, but I think that most audiophiles are still using separate server/streamers connected by USB to DAC (with or without an additional conversion to fiber for DACs that accept that); AES/EBU and S/PDIF are also used. My point was that Ethernet to USB conversion is very unlikely to be a trouble spot, although the specific hardware used may well affect sound quality.

You can also take a look at some of the topics on connecting a Lumin to your network and Puma Cat's topic of different fiber cables; there are certainly potential problems there but nothing mysterious.
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My Lumin's are directly connected to my router via cat 6a. No issues at all. I won't go fiber until our ISP buries it and offers it in our neighborhood, which might be in a few years.
 
Re: How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Netwok

I have 1GB fiber that feeds my house from my local utility company.
 
Re: How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Netwok

mep said:
I have 1GB fiber that feeds my house from my local utility company.
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So you have a fiber to Ethernet (CAT 6 or 7) conversion that is out of your control? Or are your managing that conversion?
 
Re: How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Netwok

rbbert said:
So you have a fiber to Ethernet (CAT 6 or 7) conversion that is out of your control? Or are your managing that conversion?
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The fiber was installed by my utility company. Are you suggesting I'm supposed to doing something with it after they ran the cable conversion to the router they installed?
 
Re: How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Netwok

MikeCh said:
Seems like a problem with the offending NUC and not your network. Simple way to determine the health of network connectivity to the offending NUC is to plug a laptop computer in place of the offending NUC (at the cable end that feeds the NUC) and see if you can get out to the internet to a page you'd normally not surf so that you're not relying on the PC's cache...for example, jeep.com or vw.com. If you can get to the internet, then the network is fine.

Can't help you with the NUC, sorry.
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Finally I got it back to work. You where right, it was not my network. Today this nuc was tested on another network at another house. It failed there too, with a fresh installed Roon Rock.

Then I came across that inside Roon settings there is a button "clear cache". Pressing that button instantly was impossible, because the app crashes instantly. So I needed to connect to another roon server on another pc, then boot the nuc, logout from the temporaly roon server. Login to the nuc, and then I was able to press the clear cache button

This one took me 2 weeks to solve, so happy it is playing now :audiophile:
 
Re: How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Netwok

mep said:
The fiber was installed by my utility company. Are you suggesting I'm supposed to doing something with it after they ran the cable conversion to the router they installed?
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I think that he is suggesting that you install a "digital doo-dads". LOL
 
Re: How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Netwok

Alkyogre said:
Finally I got it back to work. You where right, it was not my network. Today this nuc was tested on another network at another house. It failed there too, with a fresh installed Roon Rock.

Then I came across that inside Roon settings there is a button "clear cache". Pressing that button instantly was impossible, because the app crashes instantly. So I needed to connect to another roon server on another pc, then boot the nuc, logout from the temporaly roon server. Login to the nuc, and then I was able to press the clear cache button

This one took me 2 weeks to solve, so happy it is playing now :audiophile:
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Glad you got things resolved!
 
Re: How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Netwok

mep said:
The fiber was installed by my utility company. Are you suggesting I'm supposed to doing something with it after they ran the cable conversion to the router they installed?
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I’m not suggesting that you do anything. My point is that fiber (or coax) to Ethernet to USB (or similar), in any order, occurs in almost every setup and is unlikely to be a source of network problems unless something is actually broken.
 
Re: How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Netwok

rbbert said:
I’m not suggesting that you do anything. My point is that fiber (or coax) to Ethernet to USB (or similar), in any order, occurs in almost every setup and is unlikely to be a source of network problems unless something is actually broken.
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My whole point is use the KISS principle. USB cables are not in my setup.
 
Re: How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Netwok

mep said:
My whole point is use the KISS principle. USB cables are not in my setup.
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I understand that; it does not invalidate my point. Everyone's setup tends to a little different from almost everyone else's in at least one small detail. Conversion to or from fiber/coax/Ethernet/USB/I2S/AES/SPDIF is unlikely to be the source of a network problem unless incompatible hardware or software is used (and this can be a problem anywhere in anyone's chain, not specific to any of these conversions), which is where we started.

To take this a little further, though, how do you know that the modem and router supplied by your ISP are really "doing their job"? For example, serious gamers usually replace both of those items because they don't perform up to the gamer's expectations. I'm not saying that the hardware your ISP provided isn't handling streaming audio optimally, but do either you or I know this? FWIW I replaced my ISP's router simply because its WiFi speeds were inconsistent, and a moderately priced aftermarket router solved this problem. That has nothing to do with audio, but if the ISP's hardware isn't up to a simple task used by everyone (including non-audiophiles :P) how do you know it is really up to a more complex task (assuming that accurate transmission of all facets of a streaming audio signal is "complex")?
 
Re: How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Netwok

rbbert said:
I understand that; it does not invalidate my point. Everyone's setup tends to a little different from almost everyone else's in at least one small detail. Conversion to or from fiber/coax/Ethernet/USB/I2S/AES/SPDIF is unlikely to be the source of a network problem unless incompatible hardware or software is used (and this can be a problem anywhere in anyone's chain, not specific to any of these), which is where we started.
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Your original point was so simple it can't be invalidated and no one was trying to invalidate it. My comment to you was based on these comments from you:

"So you have a fiber to Ethernet (CAT 6 or 7) conversion that is out of your control? Or are your managing that conversion?" The company that installed my fiber network didn't give me an option to be responsible for converting the fiber over to ethernet. That's their job.
 
Re: How to Troubleshoot a High-End Audio Ethernet Netwok

mep said:
Your original point was so simple it can't be invalidated and no one was trying to invalidate it. My comment to you was based on these comments from you:

"So you have a fiber to Ethernet (CAT 6 or 7) conversion that is out of your control? Or are your managing that conversion?" The company that installed my fiber network didn't give me an option to be responsible for converting the fiber over to ethernet. That's their job.
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Post #17 (by you) highlighted "switch" and "Ethernet to USB conversion" as likely trouble spots in a network; it is this to which I have been responding. Your router is a "switch", albeit a relatively simple one. You don't have "Ethernet to USB conversion", but you do have fiber to Ethernet conversion.

Obviously IT can be complex and problematic, it's why even small businesses have IT departments or a company under contract to perform that function. KISS limits the number of places to look for problems, but it isn't necessarily the path to optimal performance. I'm not saying that your system doesn't work optimally, but do you (or does anyone) actually know that? I certainly can't say that about my (also) pretty simple network path, it's just that at this time (and maybe forever) I'm not especially interested in looking at (for example) better power supplies for the cable modem and router, or a possibly better Ethernet cable (since for the little bit of streaming I do optimal sound quality is not a priority); I'm not going to criticize others (possibly or probably with more knowledge and experience addressing these issues) who do pursue those areas. OTOH, if one doesn't have the requisite knowledge and experience to do the troubleshooting one probably should not go further in those directions.
 
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