High-End Audio - Obsolete?

I haven't read through the entire thread, but when I saw that the link directed to avsforum, my reaction was "figures." Avsforum used to be my default forum for this hobby, but I only sporadically post there nowadays. The obnoxious quotient has increased too much to my liking. The linked thread is typical of the attitude of many of the posters, particularly the newbies. It is fair to say that most people who agree with the OP in that thread have not heard a properly set up high end system. This is the same forum in which many have vehemently argued that the Emotiva XPA-1 monoblocks are every bit as good as the Bryston 28bSST2 monoblocks, without having heard the latter.

This argument will always be waged in one form or another. Most of those who haven't experienced a well set up high end (not necessarily expensive) audio system will either reject the notion that such is a worthwhile pursuit or at least be skeptical. I do find it curious that some will adamantly argue that spending a certain amount of money on DACs or preamps is a fool's errand, while in the next thread extolling the virtues of a $3K home theater projector over a $800 model is the same brand lineup. Ultimately, I think it is of little use to argue with someone without knowledge or experience who questions what floats your boat...
 
The way I got into high end gear was going used. I can afford to buy new but with paying for 2 kids in college and putting money away for retirement I felt I could get high quality audiophile gear for 1/2 the price or less. My Pass X250 amp and BAT VK-51se preamp are used.
 
Mechnutt said:
The way I got into high end gear was going used. I can afford to buy new but with paying for 2 kids in college and putting money away for retirement I felt I could get high quality audiophile gear for 1/2 the price or less. My Pass X250 amp and BAT VK-51se preamp are used.
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I'm with you, most of my 2 chl gear is used except for my old Kef 104/2, and sub which I purchased new, everything else used. There are a lot of good deals out there if you look.
 
All the gear in my main rig was used except for the Rotel CDP. I was fortunate enough to get it all for a steal and is really the main reason I have a decent sounding setup. The amp, pre, speakers, and cables cost the original owner just under $20k. I was able to snag it all and pay for the repairs and retubing for under $1k. Serious Value indeed. Until where I am in life now, I would never dream of spending that much on a rig. For my downsizing setup after selling off most of what I have now in several setups, $20k is about the budget I will deal with for something. And that is just scraping the surface of HE, let alone UHE.
 
Shadowfax said:
...

I was lucky enough to be introduced to a real wide range of music while growing up the youngest of 5. My oldest brother was always building Hafler, Heathkit, and Dynaco gear on the kitchen table while another brother put it thru the paces with AR speakers.

We also had one of the best Gear Stores around in Soundex out of Willow Grove PA. When I was 17, I spent my first income tax check on gear. They had good entry level gear all the way up to exotic. So you could hear all the expensive stuff and then decide on which of the affordable selections could get you into a decent setup. Mine was an Onkyo receiver and Tape Deck with Infinity speakers. Great little setup for a 17 y/o.

Over the years I dreamed at owning the big boy gear and spent many a Saturday listening to Krell, CJ, BAT, Rowland, JM Labs, Dunlavey, Wilson, Dynaudio and on and on. I knew I would never own any of it, but could appreciate it for what it was and was glad others could afford it. Several times I would witness someone buying a $20k turntable only to trade it in the next week for the $30 model, while my entire setup was under $1k.

I dreamed and saved until that day I placed my order for a pair of Dynaudio 82s. It was pretty hard to justify to my wife why in the world a pair of speakers could cost $2400.00, but it became clear once in place.

I am in a pretty good place now and will be downsizing my house and life over the next 5 years. I am ready to sell off almost all my gear and buy some new killer gear for retirement. The problem is, all I can go by is what I read here and other sites. I live in PA, without taking a vacation to travel to other cities, where can I hear a Lebon, a pair of Harbrerths, VAC gear, Wilsons and so on? Who will continue to drop large sums of cash for gear they can never demo? For some, dropping $20k is pocket change and if it does not sound as they expected, they sell at a loss and try it again. I am not in that league and never will be.

So for me, the real problem with HE audio is the lack of places to see, hear, and touch the gear. I am pretty sure if some of the younger generations had the same chances to hear real world class gear, they would be looking a little past Dr Dre and crappy $10 ear buds. They just don't know.

It's funny how when most people see a pair of speakers bigger than Bose Cubes, the first reaction is "I bet they play loud". I have to explain it has nothing to do with how loud they play but everything to do with how they sound at lower levels and the detail they bring out.

Sure, most people will not be dropping more on audio than they do for a house or car, but if they had the chance to experience it, they would consider a lower tier that is not just a mass market receiver and tiny speakers full of distortion.
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That is a great post Brian. ...The Internet can provide help in our search and in nurturing our knowledge further. ...Not all high-end audio stores were created equal.

* I've been in few (haute-gamme audio stores), and I've seen some patterns; some customers (regulars) always trading, always exchanging, always trying new audio gear, in a weekly basis. I think it's very good as it gives them the opportunity to experience a lot of gear in their own room by trying various component's synergy. ...You have some audio gear like that; just for trading - second-hand.

And of course you have all sort of other audio customers; each is different.

What is the best stereo sound system in the world, and who has it and is he the best hi-end audio dealer or hi-end audio customer in that same world?
That's very easy to answer; it's whoever who we've never met and who we'll never met. ...His/her room is the world's reference room, with all the hi-end audio reference gear.

We're a funny bunch; audio members of the Internet. ...Looking for the holy grail when we all already know that it simply and absolutely doesn't exist on our planet. ...Then listening and talking about all things audio. ...Like a big family. ...And a big family is comprised of several members from all avenues, experiences, social statuses, various bank accounts, different philosophies, life's priorities, human and material values, principles, and all that jazz.

That 0.1% listening improvement provided by whatever force (gear, room treatment, chords, cords, wires, electrical circuits, premium grade aircraft parts, ...) is that journey to that holy grail, and there is no destination but just an eternal road zigzagging all around the mountains of the world.

What does sound best? ...Analog or digital? ...Solid state or tubes? ...Most likely what we don't have.
And the price we pay is the price that becomes irrelevant. ...Is this one of the bible's commandments? ...Of course not, it's poetic audio jargon with a soft touch, and without wax.

What is absolute? ...Nothing else than life and death. ...Everything else is the difference.
 
Hi,
It's an old post about old high-end...
I'm 48 year's old...I'm listenning high end or low end:P...I have 11 year's old when I begin.

I have read all pages about high end obsolete.

I'm agree with many things :
- high end = very expensive, but not very musical...just marketing...
- but price is in relationship with the product.

My first high end :
- Luxman LV 100 with CABASSE Fun(loudspeakers), Technics SL120 MKII, Luxman K100

My second high end :
- The same but with loudspeakers : TDL RTL3

My third high end :
- The same, but amplifier was PROCEED PRE + PROCEED AMP2

My 4th :
- The same, but Infinity Kappa 100 replace TDL RTL3..

The last : in my signature....

Price are up, sound are up but it's not the same rules during listenning.
My old Technics SL-PS70 costs 4000 Francs(in dollars, perhaps : US$ 4000 )...
My new CD Player :Philips CD 723 costs 1000 Francs ( in dollars, perhaps : US$ 150 )...
My Philips CD Player has a best sound than my Technics....When I say :'best', I woud say : it's very very very best than my Technics.
I'm very surprised and very happy too.
It's a best seller. I keep it 2 year's before change by an ARCAM CD 23T...
2 year's to find a good CD player...

Now I ask me if I'm going to add an valve amplifier for medium and keep Jeff Rowland for the bass...

So I'm agree with many persons in the forum :
- valve or transistor ?
- high price mean not high end
- take your time to choice your product

My store let me the product at my home, so it's easy to choice : it's good or it's bad....or I can choose....
With my system, Yamaha CD 2000 is not good, but with Accuphase DP 550, I can choose.
I can choose between Accuphase DP550 and Marantz SA7S1 with Mark Levinson N° 360S (DAC)....but with the clock(GRIMM CC1), there is only a unique answer....

So passion and time for music lovers....

Best regards
 
- all of the larger "high end" companies and brands are about clever marketing - not about great sound...

- to be a successful company/brand the interests of dealers, hifi-magazins, shareholders and others parties are important - not the sound quality.

- 116 from 100 points in a review? and 3 pages from that review there's a 2.500 $ full size color ad for that product...

- and your dealer will tell you any audio crap, only because he gets about 50% of that 100.000 $ amp he just showed you...

- and when 100 people say "yes, that sounds great" - who will be the first one that says "no, that sounds terrible, because i know how a jazz band or orchester sounds in real"?

just my opinion.
 
I have listen Triangle Magellan ( 25000 Euros pair ) : I don't like it with MC Intosh mono amplifier...I don't like Tannoy Kingdom Royal ...I prefer my Infinity Kappa 100....
It's very funny : you have a Jadis DA50 Signature RC...It's made in France. I live in France and there are only 7 stores which sell Jadis...
I know Living Voice, but no store in France...

The room is very important for listenning music.
 
hongkong said:
It's very funny : you have a Jadis DA50 Signature RC...It's made in France. I live in France and there are only 7 stores which sell Jadis...
I know Living Voice, but no store in France...
.
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yes, i really like the sound of the jadis - although it takes some time to warm up. after 2 hours it's at it's best. the german audioplan company has great support and they push this french brand. in austria i know of 2 shops that sell jadis. i waited long enough to get the jadis for -50% of the listing price ;-) the living voice is very nice in combination with tubes. the OBX sounds even better - but costs a lot more. i got this speaker used only for 1.550...almost a steal.

france has some small but great hifi companies. before the living voice i had the leedh psyche speakers - also very nice. and one of the best system i ever heard was a complete verdier setup with the famous platine turntable, an amazing tube pre amp (very expensive) and a 300 b triode end amp.

i really like your setup. the VPI is a great record player and i also read about the dutch grimm clock - must be one of the best.
 
Thank you for VERDIER. I have forgotten VERDIER.
There are many brand-name (? I don't if this is correct ? Sorry ) in France but many are closed : KORA, CAIRN...

About High-end, I have found this : very interesting...
http://www.audioreview.com/cat/amplification/amplifiers/air-tight/atm-2/prd_124857_1583crx.aspx

But there are many parameters :
- Luxman + Cabasse = good sound
- Rotel + Cabasse = very bad sound !!!
- Rotel + TDL = good sound

I don't like Naim.

I don't believe in power cord but I have made myself power cord. Cost for one cable : $US 15...sound has changed ? Yes, but with a power cord at US$ 150 or US$ 800...No change !!! Perhaps worst....Thank you for the marketing...

Thank you for your comment about my setup.

VPI with AudioTechnica is very great sound.
Esoteric E03 is very neutral.

For dutch Grimm Clock, I don't know if it is one the best. I have bought it without listen it. Why ? Because I have no choice. No store in France, only pro-store...So I'm trying and I'm happy.
This clock offers AES/EBU reclocking. ML 360S don't have input clock, so there is no choice...
 
yes, you are 100% right - it's always the combination; all components must play together well.

btw the grimm clock was made by Bruno Putzeys - a digital audio and class d amp expert with an amazing record.

thanks for the air tight amp link - very interesting info.
 
I think you can keep your Jadis. It's a good product and few people sells Jadis.
If you go to Audiogon or Audiomarkt, there are few Jadis and few Airtight...but many Audio Research, Mac Intosh, Accuphase...and Jeff Rowland too...
If I could, I will try to listen Airtight and Jadis.
Thank you for the story of Grimm.
 
When you speak of the real underlying truth in this game, you will get stick. I often feel for the gentiles.

The death of high-end is inevitable. Rapid technolgy shift will see to that.

What element of high-end will remain? Technical expression will be known as a collectible art form.
 
Steve said:
When you speak of the real underlying truth in this game, you will get stick. I often feel for the gentiles.

The death of high-end is inevitable. Rapid technolgy shift will see to that.

What element of high-end will remain? Technical expression will be known as a collectible art form.
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People have been predicting the death of high-end audio since the late'50s (see Villchur's book). Reports of its death, as well as analog, have been greatly exaggerated. There will always be people that demand quality over quantity and be willing to pay for it.
 
Thanks for the reference to Villchur. I will take note to read it. :)

I'm still of the opinion that future excellence will be limited to artistic technical expression for the few. Many of whom that are regarded as high-end today will disappear.

I remain true to analog. Long live analog! Sadly, most of my peers cannot appreciate the value of distinction.
 
Yes , high end will disappear...Why ? Price are up. I have bought my loudspeakers Infinity Kappa 100 15000 Francs(Now, 2300 Euros = US$ 2300 ? ) in the year 1995...
At US$2300, you have nothing today like Infinity Kappa 100. This is an example. I would change my loudspeaker for my anniversary...I have nothing found....
At 2000 Euros, there is only DALI RUBICON 2....at home...
I have try PMC Twenty 26...Beautiful voices but lack bass...try at at home...Price : 8000 Euros...(US$ 8000)...
Magnat Signature at 8000 Euros is very bad for the price...
Many people love BW...I think there is no music with BW, but the sound is expensively detailed...But I respect their choice...
So high end obsolete ? No....old hig end best than product today...
Another example : Mark Levinson DAC N° 360 S. I have bought it 10 years after it was used...Price pay : US$ 2500.
This DAC has 15 year's old now and the sound is very musical. I have try NAIM DAC...I say : bye bye...
My CD player has a good DAC, but N° 360S has more precision and dynamic and it has HDCD too...Voices are better than SA7S1 player...
It's a few better, but I hear it...this is a little difference...but there is a difference : I hear music !
With Grimm CC1, the sound is in 3 dimensions...His technology has 7 year's old.

Now, if we compare :
Infinity has no product than the past.
Mark Levinson too...

It's sad, but it is true....
And no one listen music with their MP3 with their smartphone....
I have compare with a friend CD and Flac...We prefer CD...

And really, I prefer listen vinyl...:rolleyes:......Dynamics : 80 db, not 115 db like a CD player....no number, just listen music....
 
Steve said:
Thanks for the reference to Villchur. I will take note to read it. :)

I'm still of the opinion that future excellence will be limited to artistic technical expression for the few. Many of whom that are regarded as high-end today will disappear.

I remain true to analog. Long live analog! Sadly, most of my peers cannot appreciate the value of distinction.
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For those who haven't read Villchur's book, the quote can be found here:

villchur.jpg
 
HongKong...I agree with your statement on price also. At the turn of this century, the price/performance ratio was much lower than today.

The Madrigal made Mark Levinson of that era was the best ML product ever made IMO and offers excellent value today. Most of it needs servicing and re-capping but once you are past the repairs, are very fine collectibles. The performance characteristics of the ML33, ML33H, No.32, No.36 & No.37 rival many high end-products still to this day. I love those ML vintage numbers.
 
I remember when coke cost $.10 out of a machine, it was made with real cane sugar, and it came in a glass bottle. Now it cost $.75 out of a machine, it's made with corn syrup, and it comes in a can.
 
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