Every once in a while...

Alpinist said:
Wow, now you’ve entirely lost me. You are suggesting allocating more of the budget to power products and cabling instead of initially purchasing the Magico A5’s and Pass X-260.8’s? The key elements of the wonderful system Mike has assembled are the Magico A5’s, MSB Discrete DAC and Pass X260.8’s. The XP22 preamp is also important but could be added later due to the MSB Discrete DAC’s excellent internal preamp. I think most would agree.

Ken
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Umm...not exactly, Ken. IMHO, Mike has indeed assembled as wonderful system here. One that thoughtfully reflects his professional experience and his knowledge of the components. So, no, if I had $82K to spend for a system, I would do exactly what Mike has done here. And I for one, would love to hear it. I'l bet its amazing.

What I was saying was that if there was budget constraint such that one didn't have $82K to assemble the entirety of the fine system here all at once, I would purchase less expensive speakers and amps (but with designed and manufactured the same quality of engineering and design core competencies), and with the money saved, use those funds to get the Denali 6000/V2 PD and full Shunyata Alpha loom that Mike has listed.

I'm not intimately familiar with the Magico speaker line (though I think the brand is a superb audio component manufacturer), so let's use an example I'm familiar with that Mike also carries.

If rather than Magico A5s, the speakers were originally to be Harbeth 40.3XDs and the amp was the Pass 260.8, and the price of these amps and speakers took me out of my budget to get these AND a full Shunyata Alpha loom with Denali V2, what I would do instead would be to get Harbeth 30.2 and a Pass XA 30.8. This would save me about $14,000 I could put towards getting the Denali V2 and full Shunyata Alpha loom. I'd have gorgeous, beautiful, engaging sound. Not sound that was hashy, gritty, or spitty from using OEM black power cords and noise from the AC Mains. No, I wouldn't have as much bass, or as much volume (gain) from a smaller amp in a large room. So, what I would do is...sit closer. ;)

And then, as funds allowed, I could upgrade the amp or speakers, and still have my killer Denali and Shunyata Alpha loom to use and get full performance from these upgraded components.
 
to each his own Stephen but spending less on speakers vs. 'wire' is absurd in my book........
 
Puma Cat said:
Respectfully, that would be about the worst thing you could do to a powerful power amp, and more so with a Class A power amp like the Pass 260.8...
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As already noted, the x260.8 is not Class A, it is Class AB. And the manual for every Pass Labs product makes it clear that Pass fully understands that most users will use an aftermarket power cord, but the amps are spec'ed with the supplied cord.

The system doesn't seem to include a source to feed the DAC? Even is one is only streaming don't you still need a controller, and NAS unless one wants to be tied to a subscription service?
 
Calvin said:
IMO, a person doesn't know what they are missing until they make this
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This is the great truth about almost everything in audio and, if well understood, it allows to perceive the reason of so many opposing opinions.
 
rbbert said:
As already noted, the x260.8 is not Class A, it is Class AB. And the manual for every Pass Labs product makes it clear that Pass fully understands that most users will use an aftermarket power cord, but the amps are spec'ed with the supplied cord.

The system doesn't seem to include a source to feed the DAC? Even is one is only streaming don't you still need a controller, and NAS unless one wants to be tied to a subscription service?
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Yes, I would personally have to add at least a:

MSB Ref. SACD
Aurender W20SE
Aurender ACS10 / 24TB

to be anywhere near a minimum completion. And I’d need a rack. So, I’m well over 100k MSRP.
 
rbbert said:
As already noted, the x260.8 is not Class A, it is Class AB. And the manual for every Pass Labs product makes it clear that Pass fully understands that most users will use an aftermarket power cord, but the amps are spec'ed with the supplied cord.

The system doesn't seem to include a source to feed the DAC? Even is one is only streaming don't you still need a controller, and NAS unless one wants to be tied to a subscription service?
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It has a Roon module in the DAC. That’s how we are using it.

I know there is a lot of talk about the cables, but to be honest, this system went from great to “out of this world” when we put in the full Alpha V2 loom. We had in there previous a mishmash of Wireworld Eclipse 8 SPC, Tornado PC’s and Sigma v1 IC’s. All good cables for sure, but the system went up many notches when we put in the Alpha v2 loom. Just saying.


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rbbert said:
As already noted, the x260.8 is not Class A, it is Class AB. And the manual for every Pass Labs product makes it clear that Pass fully understands that most users will use an aftermarket power cord, but the amps are spec'ed with the supplied cord.

The system doesn't seem to include a source to feed the DAC? Even is one is only streaming don't you still need a controller, and NAS unless one wants to be tied to a subscription service?
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You're correct, I made an error in referring to the 260.8 as Class A instead of Class AB.

My bad. :P
 
BlueFox said:
Yes, Pass makes great gear, but the power cords they provide aren’t worth crap.
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Oh really?--Well according to an Audio Expert on another forum they are the highly vaunted Ching Cheng Chinese PC's he recommends --anyone can buy for a few dollars change .

Some serious Audiophiles on that site have all biffed their Transparent's/etc for the very same cords as Nelson uses.

Maybe Nelson knows something we don't:rolleyes:?

Bruce
 
Mike said:
It has a Roon module in the DAC. That’s how we are using it.

I know there is a lot of talk about the cables, but to be honest, this system went from great to “out of this world” when we put in the full Alpha V2 loom. We had in there previous a mishmash of Wireworld Eclipse 8 SPC, Tornado PC’s and Sigma v1 IC’s. All good cables for sure, but the system went up many notches when we put in the Alpha v2 loom. Just saying.


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So do you agree with Puma Cat's "advice" that if someone wanted to buy all of the gear in your "Every once in a while" system but couldn't swing the money for the full loom of Shunyata cables they should purchase cheaper gear so they could afford the full loom of Shunyata cables?
 
A bit tangential to the main thread, but what are the pros and cons of the A5 vs. the S3? Aren't they similarly priced and sized? The A5 appears to have better drivers, the S3 a more sophisticated enclosure?

It would be interesting to insert a Pass INT-250 instead of the pre-amp/amp combo; probably ~$20k less (with the fewer cables required), and how much of the magic (if any) would be retained?
 
With all due respect to the colorful and enthusiastic Formula 1 analogies and opinions of the contributing members, we do tend to let our imagination get ahead of reality somewhat...

The reality is one has a 15 or much less often a 20 amp circuit to feed the amp from. A power cord either can or cannot pass/handle the amperage. If it does not, it starts to heat up and melt. Fully taking into account that an amp can never sustain/dissipate that kind of amp draw anyways as they typically get hot even at continuous 1/3 rated power, it is even less likely for a power cord to be inadequate. Transient demands? Sure, dynamic peaks can and will cause very large draws from the power supply and the circuit but chances are the 1800 watts available from the 15 amp circuit are enough before it trips.

So a power cord in essence is either rated and adequate at supplying the needed current up to and including full home outlet/circuit wattage or it is not... After that we start getting into slew rate of cables and all that other voodoo magic. Good luck arguing that, I’m out.

This is coming from a guy that used to have packages coming for years from the cable company cable loan program... Oh I also used to work around equipment that used to have power cables that would physically dance on the floor from the power pulses.. So I do know a few things about cables and power delivery.

That’s not to say that a good power cable with better shielding, quality and better conducting plugs would not be a benefit to the system. But to put that as a priority over speakers or sources or even amps? Sorry, I don’t agree
 
Mike said:
Everyone once in a while we put together a system in the store that just so defies its total price, it’s unbelievable.

Right now, this system is blowing us away (for the money):

Magico A5’s
Pass X260.8’s
Pass XP22
MSB Discrete
Shunyata Alpha V2 power cables, IC’s and speaker cables

The cables brought this entire system to a whole new level I must say. I would take this system to the show and win best of show, I’m telling you.

I’ll try to make some videos next week.


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mep said:
So do you agree with Puma Cat's "advice" that if someone wanted to buy all of the gear in your "Every once in a while" system but couldn't swing the money for the full loom of Shunyata cables they should purchase cheaper gear so they could afford the full loom of Shunyata cables?
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I think if I was moving down in electronics and speakers, I think I would move down the line to Delta V2 too. There are a million possibilities with the funds, I was just thinking what products were at the same level for balance. I don’t think I would put Omega’s on a SimAudio ACE and a pair of Harbeth P3ESR, nor would I put Venom on M6’s and Boulder monos. Proper proportion and balance is key.


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Mike said:
I think if I was moving down in electronics and speakers, I think I would move down the line to Delta V2 too. There are a million possibilities with the funds, I was just thinking what products were at the same level for balance. I don’t think I would put Omega’s on a SimAudio ACE and a pair of Harbeth P3ESR, nor would I put Venom on M6’s and Boulder monos. Proper proportion and balance is key.


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Seems to me that Mike has found a system which has synergy and sounds good. Sure - maybe some tweaks to improve. And yes, not cheap. But a great base to start with/upgrade to. Super cool to have someone (Mike) playing with toys we all love and putting his balls on the line and suggesting a system. Love it.
 
Mike said:
I think if I was moving down in electronics and speakers, I think I would move down the line to Delta V2 too. There are a million possibilities with the funds, I was just thinking what products were at the same level for balance. I don’t think I would put Omega’s on a SimAudio ACE and a pair of Harbeth P3ESR, nor would I put Venom on M6’s and Boulder monos. Proper proportion and balance is key.


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Your approach makes way more sense than Puma Cat’s approach that you’re better off buying less expensive gear and lashing them up with very expensive cables.
 
Mike,

It has been hinted at but I will make it formal. Your thoughts on achieving almost the same performance level for a lot less money by using an integrated amplifier (Pass Labs or other). Reduces electronics cost and eliminates one power cord and pair of interconnects.
 
Dizzie said:
Mike,

It has been hinted at but I will make it formal. Your thoughts on achieving almost the same performance level for a lot less money by using an integrated amplifier (Pass Labs or other). Reduces electronics cost and eliminates one power cord and pair of interconnects.
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Actually twice the number stated that since a pair of mono blocks and a preamp would be consolidated into a single integrated.
 
Dizzie said:
Mike,

It has been hinted at but I will make it formal. Your thoughts on achieving almost the same performance level for a lot less money by using an integrated amplifier (Pass Labs or other). Reduces electronics cost and eliminates one power cord and pair of interconnects.
Click to expand...

Like with anything, you can always cut corners and get the cost down, but in doing so, you will cut performance. The X260.8/XP22 outperform the INT250 by a fair margin. I think as good as the INT250 is, the separates just bring much more to the table and I think the magic is in the preamp. You could get close with a 250.8/XP12 combo, but again, monos to stereo and dual box pre to single box. You’re giving up quite a bit in performance and the savings are not a mountain.

You also just cant compare a two box preamp to a built in the amp preamp. We are talking about a delta here of less than $10k for the monos/pre vs preamp vs the integrated. Yes, I understand the cables add up fast, but the point here is that you’re going from a one box to monos/two box preamp for under $10k. That’s quite a jump in performance for not a lot more in today’s world.

That being said, integrated amps make sense today for those looking to save space and money on electronics and cables and yes, you could do an INT-250 with the A5’s, Shunyata Alpha V2 cables and achieve wonderful performance.

The kicker here is just how good the Pass X260.8/XP22 combo is, for not crazy money. It’s sort of throwing the whole price to performance ratio out of whack.
 
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