Rob, understand the source.......
Do better ethernet cables matter?
- Thread starter Lee Scoggins
- Start date
Rob, understand the source.......
Feanor
Member
Tone and soundstage perhaps can't be measured directly, however they are likely correlated with measurable attributes.
I'm sure you'll agree that tone and soundstage depend, in the first place, on the recording usually more than on the equipment. That said, "tone" is mostly if not entirely dependent on the harmonic distortion spectral of the amplification chain. So I as I suggest in earlier in this thread 2nd/3rd order harmonic distortions -- which are measurable -- are the primary determinant of amplifier "tone".
Soundstage is likely more complicated but will usually depend on, first, the speakers, their FR range, dispersion characteristics which affect sound reflections in the room, (please refer to Floyd Toole's work). But secondly on amplification. Many of us, (including me), believe that tube amps can sometimes create a sort of "holographic" or "layered" sense of depth which can be pleasing. However pleasant this sense of depth may be, it is probably an artifact; one well-know maker of high-end tube equipment has suggested it might come primarily from 3rd order harmonics -- harmonics are measurable and usually provided with other measurements.
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
I honestly don't know why anyone even debates this issue on forums.
You've got one side that is adamant because they can't hear a difference / a mid-fi system that people with better hearing / systems that can hear a difference are evil and selling snake oil or are too mentally weak and trick themselves into hearing what they want to hear. (I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me if that is the case how come sometimes when I test cables the LESS EXPENSIVE cable sounds better).
You've got the other side that tries to engage in a debate and say it's ok if we hear different things failing to realize no matter what they say the other side will either say they are hearing things or are evil snake oil salesmen.
Honestly it's a waste on both sides to even discuss it. If someone says they can't hear a difference and are adamant there is something wrong with me for being able to hear a difference I'm not about to engage in a discussion with them. I just let them think what they want and leave them alone. It's OK if they think that and I won't tell them they are wrong.
At the ends of the day if you can hear a difference - great. If you can't - great. I don't care to have someone try and lecture me and I'm not about to try and help someone who can't hear the difference.
As far as measurements - there is no medical way to measure I love my wife, but I do. So not everything in life is measurable.
Again - thanks to Lee for posting his video and sharing what his OPINION is. EVERYTHING in this hobby is about PERSONAL OPINION and this is what makes it so great. If someone else doesn't like Lee's video or opinion then they need to accept he has a different opinion than them - and that is OK just as their opinion is OK.
You've got one side that is adamant because they can't hear a difference / a mid-fi system that people with better hearing / systems that can hear a difference are evil and selling snake oil or are too mentally weak and trick themselves into hearing what they want to hear. (I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me if that is the case how come sometimes when I test cables the LESS EXPENSIVE cable sounds better).
You've got the other side that tries to engage in a debate and say it's ok if we hear different things failing to realize no matter what they say the other side will either say they are hearing things or are evil snake oil salesmen.
Honestly it's a waste on both sides to even discuss it. If someone says they can't hear a difference and are adamant there is something wrong with me for being able to hear a difference I'm not about to engage in a discussion with them. I just let them think what they want and leave them alone. It's OK if they think that and I won't tell them they are wrong.
At the ends of the day if you can hear a difference - great. If you can't - great. I don't care to have someone try and lecture me and I'm not about to try and help someone who can't hear the difference.
As far as measurements - there is no medical way to measure I love my wife, but I do. So not everything in life is measurable.
Again - thanks to Lee for posting his video and sharing what his OPINION is. EVERYTHING in this hobby is about PERSONAL OPINION and this is what makes it so great. If someone else doesn't like Lee's video or opinion then they need to accept he has a different opinion than them - and that is OK just as their opinion is OK.
Absolutely right, IMHO
The wording of Lee's post certainly did not sound like an opinion. FWIW, my own experience has indicated that for me, cables (AC, IC and speaker) make enough of a difference to me that I try to find the best I can afford. However, I also personally know several devoted, mostly subjective audiophiles who have not found that anything more than basic well made cables make a difference to them. My conclusion is that even in the subjective audiophile community there can be worthwhile debate about cables (not which are "best", but how much they matter to the end result).
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
Hi Rob - we agree more than we disagree - so know that my response is NOT an argument but just filling out what I was saying.
Even if he states it as fact - it's fact to him which is just an opinion to others. Just as you could tell me a speaker sounds bright which is fact to you but it's really only an opinion to me as we hear differently.
I can tell you that the car I own is the best car in its segment - again I state as a fact but it is just an opinion and everyone knows that.
I do agree with you there is no best anything in audio as again it's all opinion and regardless of what I declare is best or you declare is best it's still just an opinion and others just need to accept it.
At the end of the day, people need to not get so bent out of shape about a hobby that is 100% purely opinion and subjective based in every way. I say that as someone who used to get into debates in forums on such topics and learned it just doesn't matter when neither side has any intention of changing their mind.
Thanks for sharing you opinion and having a civil chat with me on it.
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
And that's fine. Those certain people need to learn that is their opinion, and to attack others who have a different opinion and choose to use their ears is unnecessary and uncalled for. They need to learn to be respectful and tolerant of differing opinions in life and in audio.
Ultimately those people buy based on what? How it sounds so they do use their opinion.....unless they only buy based on specs only and don't care how something sounds (which I doubt).
Neither side is right nor wrong.
Agreed Rob but we enter the 'grey area' where opinions and scientific fact converge and that is where the challenge of keeping things civil emerges.
Yes, they clearly do. I started with Blue Jeans Ethernet cables and upgraded several times. I landed at the Audioquest Diamond Ethernet cable. The most transparent I have listened to. I purchased them for my entire network and haven’t looked back.
Ken
Ken
Puma Cat
Well-known member
ASR makes a "big deal" about "measurements", yet they've never conducted, nor published, a statistically valid MSA* (Measurement Systems Analysis).
For example, what is their % Contribution of their measurement system to the overall "sums of squares" of the ANOVA†?
You can't provide "statistical validity" (establish "legitimacy") of your measurement system, doesn't matter what the measurements are, without doing an MSA.
And...they haven't done one.
*-MSA: MSA | Measurement System Analysis | Quality-One
†-MSA is based on ANOVA
And they have yet to live up to the "science" part of their name, i.e., presenting new evidence (the results of a well-designed well-performed scientific study) to support a point-of-view or opinion.
Puma Cat
Well-known member
Exactly right. Don't get me started with those guys. As someone who worked as a scientist my entire professional career (with peer-reviewed papers published in leading journals, including Science, The Proceedings of the National Academy of the Sciences, et. al.), they give science a bad name.
Just a minor side note: science is performed to further our understanding and increase our knowledge, develop axioms, test hypotheses, and thus, establish "ground truths". POV's or "opinions" are subjective; Science is Objective.
Here's an example of real science applied to home audio:
A DOE (Design of Experiments) I did to integrate my REL sub to the main loudspeakers in 2-Channel stereo system. Analysis using JMP.
This DOE is statistically valid with an R-Square of 0.970665, R-Sq Adj. of 0.948662 (which means that 95% of the data is explained by the model), and a p-value of 0.0016 (where alpha is 0.05). This is what real science looks like...
Q: Ever see ASR conduct a statisically valid DOE? A: Nope.