"Destination" Part Deux

[Audio 1]

Bryston 4B SST2 - talk to Sean. He owned one and sold it. I have an SST2 amp myself. It's collecting dust. Would love me a pair of 28SST2's though. 4BSST2 paired with a tube DAC, could be 'ok'. Bryston is a terrific company.
ARC DS-450 - don't walk, run away from this one. I owned it. Not good.
McIntosh 302/402 - old Mc sound. Looks pretty though. I've owned both of these. I would suggest the MC452 instead.
Pass 250.8 - True Pass magic is found in their XA or XS series. Paired with a tube DAC - could be ok though.

Mike as usual is spot on. Chris I do not think you would like the Mc 402. The 452 would be the way to go if you went the Mac route.
I owned an ARC DS amp and did not care for it. I owned a 14B SST2 and while it was a good amp the Pass XA 30 I used next on the same speakers was much more to my liking.

 

[CDLehner]

Well guys, let me clear something up; because obviously synergy and system-matching is important. I would ALWAYS use a tube pre-amp, with a solid-state power amp; especially one that was neutral and/or (c)lean-sounding. I think I kinda stated that in the OP; that these days, I'm not looking for much color or character from the amp...that's what the DAC, pre-amp, etc can be for. (there are exceptions...like Pass class-A is warm sounding, so a tube pre-amp might not be the best choice there; or the Ayre K-5xe MP was so smooth...I might put it in front of a solid-state amp. Hmm...not a bad idea actually; god I loved that unit...but it wouldn't leave the kinda room for tweaking, that a tube unit would).

Anyway...when I get confused and overwhelmed; I pause. I've had people, who's opinions I trust; say Bryston is great...and conversely, that Bryston sucks...lol. I was high on Simaudio; had a dealer who carries it, recently tell me it's the brand that comes back most to his shop. I don't really have the budget, for the Pass I'd like.

And as much as anything...I've got too much freakin' gear right now! The last thing I need to do (though all do it, way too often)...is bring another piece in, before I've purged some of the old. And who knows...maybe the ARC VT-50, will get the job done to my satisfaction; or the AX-7e will blow me away.

I'm probably talking weeks, not months; so by all means...you can keep the ideas, suggestions, and feedback coming. It's probably going to take some hand-wringing, to settle on a model anyway. Thanks

 

[Mike]

Chris - first, Bryston doesn't suck. Quite the contrary. However, once you've heard the 28SST2's, there ain't no going back to a 4BSST2. So, maybe it's all perspective. I know there was a pair of mint 28SST's floating around for $8K. Can't remember where I heard that. Let me dig around.

Let's attack this from another angle. Are you settled on speakers or at least settled for now? If so, what are they? Have you investigated into "best amp pairings" with those? What I mean, is emailed or called the manufacturer?

What Pass model do you want? XA100.8?

 

[octadyndude]

Chris I had a Bryston B100sst for about 5 years. Nice little IA but it did have 1 little quirk. That is when using single ended cables I had a hum that I could only get rid of by removing the earth ground from source which was a Meridian G08. I believe it is because of the differential amp Bryston uses. Unfortunately the B100 had no balanced inputs and I believe that would have solved the hum problem. My brother in law had the BP25 and 3BST and only had the hum when using single ended cables too. Then I traded the Bryston for the Octave V70se. Better control of the music - and not as dry sounding in the mids. The Octave V70 and V110 do run out of steam only when really pushing the amp to the max. But that is pretty common for tubes.

That said I have to say you need to settle on a pair of speakers and then find the right amp. I don't believe there is any one amp that fits all systems. But out of your choices I would vote for the Pass.

Good luck

 

[CDLehner]

Let's attack this from another angle. Are you settled on speakers or at least settled for now? If so, what are they? Have you investigated into "best amp pairings" with those? What I mean, is emailed or called the manufacturer?

What Pass model do you want?

That said I have to say you need to settle on a pair of speakers and then find the right amp. I don't believe there is any one amp that fits all systems. But out of your choices I would vote for the Pass.

Good luck

Yeah; I suppose, this really is at the crux of the problem. I'm not sure, which speakers will stay; and I am kinda asking for like, the best...powerful, all-arounder.

I can say this though; I'm buying...for the Ref 1s. In other words...I'm convinced anything that can drive the Ref 1s; can drive the 20-26s. But absolutely...not the other way around.

Now...will a big, neutral beast; be the best match sonically...for the PMCs, should they displace the KEFs? Maybe not; but I'll worry about that later.

As for what KEF demos; well...that's a point of contention. They use Parasound Halo...which I think is ill-advised. But I get the idea...and that's kinda what I'm going for (again); big, clean, neutral..power. Current that won't run out of steam. I'm not looking for color from the amp; I'll bring that to the party upstream.

If it were just this side of warm/musical, that would be fine; just nothing too warmish. That's the only reason, I shy away from class-A Pass. I had the 30.8; love, love, loved it. And it's got that current thing for days; so I might be tempted to go like 60.8s and be done! But it's a little golden, yes?

At the same time...I also auditioned a 150.8; in that system...with that speaker pairing, I liked the added warmth of the XA. But I was thinking maybe 250.8 for these KEFs. :bonkers:

 

[joeinid]

My 2 cents, if you are going Bryston, get the 28bsst2's and don't look back. Destination amps for sure.

If going Pass, consider the 350.8, enough class A for serious listening and plenty of power for everything else.

 

[puroagave]

Well guys, let me clear something up; because obviously synergy and system-matching is important. I would ALWAYS use a tube pre-amp, with a solid-state power amp; especially one that was neutral and/or (c)lean-sounding. I think I kinda stated that in the OP; that these days, I'm not looking for much color or character from the amp...that's what the DAC, pre-amp, etc can be for. (there are exceptions...like Pass class-A is warm sounding, so a tube pre-amp might not be the best choice there; or the Ayre K-5xe MP was so smooth...I might put it in front of a solid-state amp. Hmm...not a bad idea actually; god I loved that unit...but it wouldn't leave the kinda room for tweaking, that a tube unit would).

Anyway...when I get confused and overwhelmed; I pause. I've had people, who's opinions I trust; say Bryston is great...and conversely, that Bryston sucks...lol. I was high on Simaudio; had a dealer who carries it, recently tell me it's the brand that comes back most to his shop. I don't really have the budget, for the Pass I'd like.

And as much as anything...I've got too much freakin' gear right now! The last thing I need to do (though all do it, way too often)...is bring another piece in, before I've purged some of the old. And who knows...maybe the ARC VT-50, will get the job done to my satisfaction; or the AX-7e will blow me away.

I'm probably talking weeks, not months; so by all means...you can keep the ideas, suggestions, and feedback coming. It's probably going to take some hand-wringing, to settle on a model anyway. Thanks

have you considered a V-5xe to marry up with the K-5xe?

 

[CDLehner]

have you considered a V-5xe to marry up with the K-5xe?

I did. To be clear...I don't have the K-5xe MP anymore; but would buy another one in a heartbeat. But when I did have it...I liked it so much, I thought about a "companion" amp. To be honest...and it's a little embarrassing; the mismatched styling put me off the V-5xe, lol.

As stoopid as it is...I guess I'm not alone; because I remember reading a review, where the journalist said the same thing...lol.

For the record...I'm pretty sure, I'm down to 3 contenders. Remember, I said in the OP; it would be a matter...not only of strictly performance. But price, logistics, and "desire" (I said gut-feeling...but desire is what I meant, lol).

In no particular order:

Bryston 4B SST2

(David) Belles Ref 350a V2

Pass 250.8

 

[mep]

I sense some exasperation on the part of some of those who are truly trying to give Chris the best advice they can. The only thing I find odd is that someone asks for advice, someone provides advice based on lots of experience and Chris is told to stay away from a certain amp, and it's still on his short list which tells me he is not taking anyone's advice seriously.

Good luck Chris. Let us know what you end up with.

 

[joeinid]

I sense some exasperation on the part of some of those who are truly trying to give Chris the best advice they can. The only thing I find odd is that someone asks for advice, someone provides advice based on lots of experience and Chris is told to stay away from a certain amp, and it's still on his short list which tells me he is not taking anyone's advice seriously.

Good luck Chris. Let us know what you end up with.

Asking someone's opinion is tough. You will get EVERY conceivable opinion. I've done it in the past and realize it's not the best way to find what you want because of that reason.

I can only give advice on what I've owned or heard in a familiar system.

We are here for you Chris, hopefully we can narrow down on the right answer.

 

[CDLehner]

I sense some exasperation on the part of some of those who are truly trying to give Chris the best advice they can. The only thing I find odd is that someone asks for advice, someone provides advice based on lots of experience and Chris is told to stay away from a certain amp, and it's still on his short list which tells me he is not taking anyone's advice seriously.

Good luck Chris. Let us know what you end up with.

Really? I guess you're referring to the 4B SST2?

Well, first; I don't think anyone in this thread, has said "stay away". In fact, I said "sucked"...and Mike specifically said "it doesn't suck". Are there more exciting offerings out there...than the hasn't-changed-in-20-years Bryston? Sure.

But I've also had other people...and some of them on this very forum; tell me the 4B SST2 is "great" (relatively speaking, for the price. Which BTW...is really, really, really good right now; because of the CAD exchange). Yes...some have said "if you're getting Bryston, be sure to get the 28Bs; they blow the 4B away". And that's fine advice; but yes guys...I have no doubt the $20,000 monos best the $5k stereo model. Just can't do it.

I'm measuring this decision, with price vs. performance/power in mind. So yes; considering the price I've been offered, on a 4B SST2...it stays on the short list. It's the "bargain" of the group; and again...I haven't heard anyone say "it stinks".

 

[bzr]

My 2 cents, if you are going Bryston, get the 28bsst2's and don't look back. Destination amps for sure.

If going Pass, consider the 350.8, enough class A for serious listening and plenty of power for everything else.

If Mike can find you those 28BSST amps for $8k they that would be a great choice & like Joe said, it's a destination set of amps with oodles of grunt. I've had the 28's in my system the same time as McIntosh 2301's, the similarity in tone & presentation was very similar.

 

[CDLehner]

Asking someone's opinion is tough. You will get EVERY conceivable opinion. I've done it in the past and realize it's not the best way to find what you want because of that reason.

I can only give advice on what I've owned or heard in a familiar system.

We are here for you Chris, hopefully we can narrow down on the right answer.

Yeah, thanks Joe. You're absolutely right; and it's always easy, to spend other's money...yes?

FWIW; I have a feeling the consensus is the Pass...and it's what I want. But it's maybe TWICE the price of the Bryston (for example).

So to act like "oh...just pick the expensive, "good" one" is silly. We all have considerations.

 

[Mike]

If Mike can find you those 28BSST amps for $8k they that would be a great choice & like Joe said, it's a destination set of amps with oodles of grunt. I've had the 28's in my system the same time as McIntosh 2301's, the similarity in tone & presentation was very similar.

Joe - can you check with Bruce? It might have been him or the other Mike who had them.

I know I had a pair (from Jerry) and sold them for $8500 to a fellow in CA.

 

[cmalak]

Chris...sounds like you want to stay in the $5K region and $8K and beyond is a stretch, so let's stick with the $5K budget. One option you haven't mentioned and that others have not suggested is Hegel. I believe the Hegel H20 stereo amp should be another consideration. Puts out 200wpc into 8ohms and 350wpc into 4ohms. Lists for $5,750 and seems like another neutral, revealing solution with natural midrange and god imaging. Here's a review: SoundStage! Hi-Fi | SoundStageHiFi.com - SoundStage! Hi-Fi | SoundStageHiFi.com

The other option from Hegel that can fit the bill is the H300 integrated and I believe you can bypass it's preamp and use it a stereo amp. Also lists in the $5K region but you should be able to find a nice used version for less. Should have similar sonic characteristics. If you decide to clean out your preamps as well, this could serve you well as an integrated until you decide to reintroduce a preamp down the road, if that is something you are considering doing.

Just another idea for your consideration.

 

[mep]

Really? I guess you're referring to the 4B SST2?

Yep.

Well, first; I don't think anyone in this thread, has said "stay away".

Here is what Mike said:

Bryston 4B SST2 - talk to Sean. He owned one and sold it. I have an SST2 amp myself. It's collecting dust.

If that doesn't say "stay away," please tell me what it means to you. If you ask me about an amp and I tell you that I have one and it's collecting dust, do you think that infers that I think you should run out and buy one? Bargains are only great if they are what you really want and they make you happy. Good luck Chris.

 

[Mike]

PMC Twenty-26 Specs:

Impedance: 8 Ohm
Input Connectors: 3 pairs 4mm sockets (Tri-amp or Tri-wire)
Recommended Amp Power: 50 - 300W
Sensitivity: 86dB 1W 1m

8 ohm - good for tubes!
Sensitivity - 86db - need some juice!

 

[Mike]

Yep.



Here is what Mike said:

If that doesn't say "stay away," please tell me what it means to you. If you ask me about an amp and I tell you that I have one and it's collecting dust, do you think that infers that I think you should run out and buy one? Bargains are only great if they are what you really want and they make you happy. Good luck Chris.

Mark raises a good point, it isn't that the 4BSST2 is a bad amp, it isn't. BUT - with all due respect, I'm not going to put it in play in lieu of my XS amps or AT or even the new Lampi 211's. Now the 28SST2's...that's a different story. I should never have sold them. Buggar!

What I'm afraid, is that it may end up becoming just part of the audio herd that already exists in your home (I know the herd well, I have my own!).

My HONEST HONEST HONEST opinion is that if you sold all or most of the stuff you have now and consolidated that money, you could really buy some kick ass stuff - stuff you probably would hang on to for a long time. Whether that be Pass, Conrad Johnson, ARC, McIntosh or whatever, you would be in the drivers seat.

Depending on your level of sales success between now and October, you could even use some air miles and a few dollars and attend RMAF to see what's new and exciting. Heck, you may stumble upon something that just knocks your socks off, something that is in the market today or something brand new that's announced at RMAF.

 

[Jack]

Mike

It's the Ref 1's that are an amp killer. Soundstage measured them at the "CNRC" at 82 db and pretty much everything under 500 hz was below 4 ohms.

 

[Mike]

Mike

It's the Ref 1's that are an amp killer. Soundstage measured them at the "CNRC" at 82 db and pretty much everything under 500 hz was below 4 ohms.

Thanks Jack. Thanks for the clarification. Well, 28SST2's can handle anything and everything!