Belt Drive Tables Stink

[Mike]

I don't agree with that statement. I currently have the Avenger with the rim drive and I think it's all about how you setup the rim drive. Mine is dead quiet. If you don't adjust the rim drive correctly, it will affect speed and noise.

When you have 109db efficient speakers, you will feel different. Trust me. All I heard was "whir, whir, whir". Rick Mak also agreed with me - it was way too noisy (but he was much more diplomatic in his review). The belt drive is perfection in my system. Dead quiet.

If it's working for you, that's good. Rick and I both had major noise issues.

 

[KeithR]

I want to hear about a Bardo/Oasis vs SP10r shootout some day. Both DD systems, but very different ways of getting there.

 

[mep]

When you have 109db efficient speakers, you will feel different. Trust me. All I heard was "whir, whir, whir". Rick Mak also agreed with me - it was way too noisy (but he was much more diplomatic in his review). The belt drive is perfection in my system. Dead quiet.

If it's working for you, that's good. Rick and I both had major noise issues.

I certainly don't have 109dB efficient speakers and I doubt many others do either so maybe your case is an outlier?

 

[Mike]

I certainly don't have 109dB efficient speakers and I doubt many others do either so maybe your case is an outlier?

I thoughts so, but Rick’s speakers are only 90db and we both shared the same grief and relief to go to the belt drive.


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[mep]

I thoughts so, but Rick’s speakers are only 90db and we both shared the same grief and relief to go to the belt drive.


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Interesting. My NOLA KO speakers aren't picking up noise from the rim drive.

 

[mep]

Look up , I had already answered way back , more than once , so here goes again, i have all drive types and if thats not clear enough ,

1. DD
2. BD
3. Idler

There's also , Tape, yes 15ips , even a few of my own recordings, from the days when i actually designed playback systems in studios , then there's some digital , i still play shiny disc stuff (only1500 thou) there's two tuners , listen to FM jazz programs about twice a week , Toobs and SS gear , pre and power , A full assortment of loudspeaker testing gear as i still have my LMS/Leap testing suite , a few dynamic point source speakers , floor standers and stand ones , currently 7 ft tall Ribbon dipole/Hybrid occupies the listening space , a bigger 4 tower one is expected later this year, if i can wager the time, these use true Ribbons , not the quasi stuff others peddle as true ribbons, unfortunately they still suck over 20amps from the wall socket to power them ..

as well as but not least ,

A multitude of prototype stuff made by those still making "stuff" in the crazy business , some really really good , some so so , but i get to evaluate and give my 2 cents, ears not as golden as yours or your current prento , but i try ...

BTW, The only True reference is live music , you know like the ones you actually record yourself ..

Have any..?

Funny how you pop up every 5 yrs Myles with the same questions and absolute statements , i see not much has changed since your Audio Adventure days when you would come into my room , are you still listening to those 3 ft apart Logans ...


Anyway feel free to teach me "stuff" instead of discussion ..



Regards

I got me some of this and I got me some of that...

So why are you being such a secret squirrel about what gear you actually own? It's always helpful in order to put someone's comments into perspective when they actually divulge the names and models of the gear they are listening to in their system.

 

[asiufy]

My question for Alex, how does the 1200 stack up to a similar priced Clearaudio or VPI?

I haven't compared them to a Clearaudio. There's a local client with a Clearaudio Concept who's interested in the Technics, so we might do a shootout one of these days.
So far, we've done shootouts here with Regas (P6 and P8s), and VPIs (Classic and Prime). Those ALWAYS ended up in a Technics sale.
We currently have a slightly used Rega P6 with upgraded power supply, in case anyone's interested


cheers,
alex

 

[Mr Peabody]

Interesting about DD and exact speed leading to PRAT, wasn't it the LP-12, at least originally, running a bit fast that gave it so called PRAT helped make it the legend it is today? I personally would want my speed exact as possible, knowing that's the reference speed of the LP.

I think someone wrote a song about it. I want to knowhat PRAT is........ I want you to show me.....

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Interesting about DD and exact speed leading to PRAT, wasn't it the LP-12, at least originally, running a bit fast that gave it so called PRAT helped make it the legend it is today? I personally would want my speed exact as possible, knowing that's the reference speed of the LP.

I think someone wrote a song about it. I want to knowhat PRAT is........ I want you to show me.....

i'd say in the mid market idler's are the PRAT champs, with their mechanical leverage advantages, sometimes adding noise. belts are space, ease and flow champs, dd lowest noise and steady speed, second place in PRAT.....slightly less sexy (less of their own signature).

these are generalities I recognize mostly in the low to mid (under $15k-$20k) list price range. above that spot all the approaches seem to get closer. then mostly belts at the 'super uber' level. the Saskia being the outlier (a dead quiet super uber idler) and lamented gone from the marketplace.....greatly missed.

 

[a.wayne]

My two cents:

RIM drives suck ass, especially if you have high efficiency speakers.
I love well designed DD tables. The key is proper isolation from the motor or the vibrations are transmitted back into the cart/arm. DD tables have excellent PRAT. This would be my preference because of speed perfection. In my opinion, speed perfection is paramount to world class vinyl playback.
Belt drives are a safe smart bet. They don’t have the micro resonance issues or risks associated with some DD tables and are generally speed acceptable.

That about nails it ....

 

[Mr Peabody]

That's saying something. Is that with same cart? Anyone ever comment what they like better about the 1200, just sound better?

I haven't compared them to a Clearaudio. There's a local client with a Clearaudio Concept who's interested in the Technics, so we might do a shootout one of these days.
So far, we've done shootouts here with Regas (P6 and P8s), and VPIs (Classic and Prime). Those ALWAYS ended up in a Technics sale.
We currently have a slightly used Rega P6 with upgraded power supply, in case anyone's interested


cheers,
alex

 

[a.wayne]

You still haven’t answered the question.

Funny, I see you are as big a troll  as ever and as sloppy about your facts as you are your knowledge.

What facts are we missing ?

Ok, I do see where you have exchanged the 3 ft apart logans for 3 ft apart Magico's ,

i'm guessing here, up todate ?

Curious , in your current setup is the image height above you when you stand or only when seated , a good test for Image height in Your setup is to use the Chesky test disc no1 , LEDR test ..

very good test for your speakers/ room interactions, more than a few recordings have different image height's , Belafonte for eg is above the orchestra on stage , the recording when played accurately will have him standing above and not on the same plane as the orchestra...

Most systems fail this test , some from poor design some from poor room ceiling reflection control or both ..



Regards


PS If you don't undersrand the LEDR test , no problem , i will gladly explain it to you , give me a PM.....

 

[a.wayne]

I've been bugging Mat to create a sub-$10K VPI DD TT. Fingers crossed it happens. The Technics looks good.

Considering the platter is attached directly to the drive shaft only way to really deal with this is via a good platter mat or two piece platter. I would also like to see the platter extended from the motor , thinking 6 inches from platter ..


Regards

 

[Mr Peabody]

Alex, looks like the 1200 is more expensive than the Concept, RP8, not sure what the Classics cost. I see various prices for the 1200 from $4100 to $5900, are there different versions or packages?

 

[a.wayne]

I got me some of this and I got me some of that...

So why are you being such a secret squirrel about what gear you actually own? It's always helpful in order to put someone's comments into perspective when they actually divulge the names and models of the gear they are listening to in their system.

When you can hear the whir whir of the Rim drive and the clip clip of your ARC I will .....

Anyway i have heard Karls Nola and find them very good , so I'm sure you now have good sound , i bet you would find them much better if you would actually power them correctly ...

 

[a.wayne]

i'd say in the mid market idler's are the PRAT champs, with their mechanical leverage advantages, sometimes adding noise. belts are space, ease and flow champs, dd lowest noise and steady speed, second place in PRAT.....slightly less sexy (less of their own signature).

these are generalities I recognize mostly in the low to mid (under $15k-$20k) list price range. above that spot all the approaches seem to get closer. then mostly belts at the 'super uber' level. the Saskia being the outlier (a dead quiet super uber idler) and lamented gone from the marketplace.....greatly missed.

Uncle Mike ,

15-20k TT is not low to mid price for us plebs , i'm thinking Hi- end when prices hit 20K






Regards

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Uncle Mike ,

15-20k TT is not low to mid price for us plebs , i'm thinking Hi- end when prices hit 20K






Regards

fair enough, those are list prices, not street prices. these are all high end, just not tip top of it.

and there are vintage TT's with new plinths in that $10k-$15k range that fit that profile too. to me that is the mid-point and where the drive approach seems to still show up sonically. above that point execution seems to improve and the negatives are much less obvious and it's more slightly different flavors.

just my viewpoint.

agree that $20k cash gets you into the top flight area one way or another. not bleeding edge top, but top none the less.

maybe the soon to be released SP-10R in a custom plinth will turn this upside down. we will just have to wait for a few production examples to get out there to be compared.

 

[asiufy]

That's saying something. Is that with same cart? Anyone ever comment what they like better about the 1200, just sound better?

Hi,

I don't remember if all the comparisons were done with the same cart, since I don't do the actual analog setups I do remember that one client actually had the same Ortofon 2M cart on his table as we had on our 1200GR, so that was easy.

The comments, including post-sale, generally are about the solidity of the bass, and a greater perceived impact of instruments (their speed). Build quality is usually mentioned as well, as folks are generally happy and impressed with the overall package, even on the 1200GR.

 

[asiufy]

Alex, looks like the 1200 is more expensive than the Concept, RP8, not sure what the Classics cost. I see various prices for the 1200 from $4100 to $5900, are there different versions or packages?

The 1200GR is $1700, and the 1200G is $4000. There is a limited edition 1200GAE also, slightly better than the 1200G, but that's long gone (1200 units globally).

I lost track of all the VPI models, but I believe the VPI we had was the $6000 Classic, with the 3D printed tonearm.

 

[bonzo]

My two cents:

RIM drives suck ass, especially if you have high efficiency speakers.
I love well designed DD tables. The key is proper isolation from the motor or the vibrations are transmitted back into the cart/arm. DD tables have excellent PRAT. This would be my preference because of speed perfection. In my opinion, speed perfection is paramount to world class vinyl playback.
Belt drives are a safe smart bet. They don’t have the micro resonance issues or risks associated with some DD tables and are generally speed acceptable.

Schroeder, Schick, PTP of PTP lenco, the western electric room in Munich, and a few others who have very high efficiency horns all prefer best restored idlers in their system. Mainly Garrard, 124 or Lenco.