Belt Drive Tables Stink

bonzo said:
Schroeder, Schick, PTP of PTP lenco, the western electric room in Munich, and a few others who have very high efficiency horns all prefer best restored idlers in their system. Mainly Garrard, 124 or Lenco.
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So? Idler is similar but different from RIM. This RIM implementation didn’t work for me or Rick. Maybe with Mark’s they’ve ironed out the bugs.


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I was just commenting regarding idlers. I don't know about rims, my point is well restored idlers can avoid the noise effect through horns. If someone did a similar thing to rim, it might work.
 
bonzo said:
I was just commenting regarding idlers. I don't know about rims, my point is well restored idlers can avoid the noise effect through horns. If someone did a similar thing to rim, it might work.
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An Idler is definitely a good way to go, just not popular on many modern tables. Not sure why. Probably cost.
 
Mike Lavigne said:
i'd say in the mid market idler's are the PRAT champs, with their mechanical leverage advantages, sometimes adding noise. belts are space, ease and flow champs, dd lowest noise and steady speed, second place in PRAT.....slightly less sexy (less of their own signature).

these are generalities I recognize mostly in the low to mid (under $15k-$20k) list price range. above that spot all the approaches seem to get closer. then mostly belts at the 'super uber' level. the Saskia being the outlier (a dead quiet super uber idler) and lamented gone from the marketplace.....greatly missed.
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I hate the term "PRAT," but since I live in the "low to mid list price range," I have to say the SP-10 MKII will give many tables a run for their money in terms of speed accuracy, low noise, and high fidelity regardless of price. The new SP-10R might just shake things up in the turntable world if it is clearly better than the SP-10 MKIII. The good news for some people might be that the SP-10 MKIII will drop in price enough that some people who wanted them will now be able to afford them.
 
mep said:
I hate the term "PRAT," but since I live in the "low to mid list price range," I have to say the SP-10 MKII will give many tables a run for their money in terms of speed accuracy, low noise, and high fidelity regardless of price. The new SP-10R might just shake things up in the turntable world if it is clearly better than the SP-10 MKIII. The good news for some people might be that the SP-10 MKIII will drop in price enough that some people who wanted them will now be able to afford them.
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Yes, the modded vintage technics will be less wanted and drop in price due to new one. Long term I see myself with a schopper restored TD 124 and a modded technics though not sure what plinth etc yet will have to look at that.
 
aKnyght said:
a < $10k VPI DD would be nice! and the new technics sl-1200gr does look good - a lot of nice enhancements in the new version.
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the Technics, at it's price point is better than good, more like superb ! The reality is though, there are a fair number of audiophile / snobophiles that wouldn't' touch it.
 
a.wayne said:
When you can hear the whir whir of the Rim drive and the clip clip of your ARC I will ..... :)

Anyway i have heard Karls Nola and find them very good , so I'm sure you now have good sound , i bet you would find them much better if you would actually power them correctly ...
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Same old BS. Why don't you tell Carl (not Karl) that he didn't know what he was doing when he decided upon the Ref 75 to be his amplifier of choice when he brought the KO speakers to market? I'm sure Carl would be glad to hear from a genius like you so he can learn how to properly pick an amplifier for his speaker designs.
 
bonzo said:
Yes, the modded vintage technics will be less wanted and drop in price due to new one. Long term I see myself with a schopper restored TD 124 and a modded technics though not sure what plinth etc yet will have to look at that.
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Are you in a contest with RR to see who can drag out the purchase of a real stereo system the longest? :) RR has been down since 2012. How long have you been without a functioning stereo system? Doing your homework is one thing, but we are way past the point of having multiple honorary Ph.Ds for all of the *homework* and reports that have been written by you and RR. Is there a system coming to your house in the "short term" or is your system still years out?
 
mep said:
Same old BS. Why don't you tell Carl (not Karl) that he didn't know what he was doing when he decided upon the Ref 75 to be his amplifier of choice when he brought the KO speakers to market? I'm sure Carl would be glad to hear from a genius like you so he can learn how to properly pick an amplifier for his speaker designs.
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Ok Clip City ...


I would , communication was not unusual amongst designers when at the same shows , also he and i were the only ones selling semi Dipole speakers , Alon for Him which is now NOLA ,( alon backwards ) unlike an empty barrel like you , discussion is usually accepted ...

BTW as a pretender reviewing , you lose all credibility with such diatribe and constant dogma , How can anyone take any of your reviews seriously...


Chooo
 
a.wayne said:
Ok Clip City ...


I would , communication was not unusual amongst designers when at the same shows , also he and i were the only ones selling semi Dipole speakers , Alon for Him which is now NOLA ,( alon backwards ) unlike an empty barrel like you , discussion is usually accepted ...

BTW as a pretender reviewing , you lose all credibility with such diatribe and constant dogma , How can anyone take any of your reviews seriously... Chooo
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I think you were looking in the mirror when you typed that sentence. You have been running your mouth about my Ref 75 since I bought it and your constant diatribe and dogma about it being a clipping machine with the KO speakers has been never ending. But these pot shots are coming from someone who is embarrassed to list the gear in his own system.

Are you still in mourning that Crown went out of business?
 
Mike Lavigne said:
fair enough, those are list prices, not street prices. these are all high end, just not tip top of it.

and there are vintage TT's with new plinths in that $10k-$15k range that fit that profile too. to me that is the mid-point and where the drive approach seems to still show up sonically. above that point execution seems to improve and the negatives are much less obvious and it's more slightly different flavors.

just my viewpoint.

agree that $20k cash gets you into the top flight area one way or another. not bleeding edge top, but top none the less.

maybe the soon to be released SP-10R in a custom plinth will turn this upside down. we will just have to wait for a few production examples to get out there to be compared.
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Agree totally, the refinement and accuracy at the pointy end takes chunks of cash for every gain , nothing linear about the cost performance . No way to get that level of refinement with 20K ...

This was obvious to me also when i heard Sharky Mikes Belt drive Cronos setup and analog front end, it exhibits a high level of refinement..


Regards
 
a.wayne said:
Agree totally, the refinement and accuracy at the pointy end takes chunks of cash for every gain , nothing linear about the cost performance . No way to get that level of refinement with 20K ...

This was obvious to me also when i heard Sharky Mikes Belt drive Cronos setup and analog front end, it exhibits a high level of refinement..


Regards
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So your Post Header "" Belt Drive Tables Stink " is only related to belt drive turn tables that cost X number of dollars.
 
bonzo said:
I was just commenting regarding idlers. I don't know about rims, my point is well restored idlers can avoid the noise effect through horns. If someone did a similar thing to rim, it might work.
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An idler is a Rim drive system , unless Im missing something about Mikes VPI setup. BTW i do expect the lenco back soon So we will see if the BD 's stay .. :)

BTW , I have in the past , experienced the same noise issues Mike was having , usually caused from a noisy worn wheel or misalignment but they are noisy vs BD for sure , if you are used to the dead silence of BD's a Idler will be much different .

my 2 cents.
 
mep said:
Are you in a contest with RR to see who can drag out the purchase of a real stereo system the longest? :) RR has been down since 2012. How long have you been without a functioning stereo system? Doing your homework is one thing, but we are way past the point of having multiple honorary Ph.Ds for all of the *homework* and reports that have been written by you and RR. Is there a system coming to your house in the "short term" or is your system still years out?
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With brexit places are tough to sell. Audio is a great dream but reality is harsher. Also if the current place sells it will be impossible to make a judgement on whether to buy until the brexit deal becomes clear. Prices are much lower from two years ago and further dropping. That's reality. And yes, Berning and atmasphere were bought my me and shipped to a friend's house since he has horns, as has been other gear, so that's how I whet my gear appetite.
 
a.wayne said:
An idler is a Rim drive system , unless Im missing something about Mikes VPI setup. BTW i do expect the lenco back soon So we will see if the BD 's stay .. :)

BTW , I have in the past , experienced the same noise issues Mike was having , usually caused from a noisy worn wheel or misalignment but they are noisy vs BD for sure , if you are used to the dead silence of BD's a Idler will be much different .

my 2 cents.
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The lenco I understand is very difficult to make quiet. Best to get PTPs
 
mep said:
I think you were looking in the mirror when you typed that sentence. You have been running your mouth about my Ref 75 since I bought it and your constant diatribe and dogma about it being a clipping machine with the KO speakers has been never ending. But these pot shots are coming from someone who is embarrassed to list the gear in his own system.

Are you still in mourning that Crown went out of business?
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Yes,

Right after i threw out my hard sounding KSA250 , you know the amp you blah blah blah about for yrs ...
 
MDP said:
Will some of you please refrain from the childish bickering.

Keep it civil!!
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Thanks Mark: No matter what table you consider ‘best’, I started this thread simply to question the overwhelming dominant technology of the day. I was expecting to get bombarded with negative comments. When a company like VPI ( who built their reputation with belt drives ) produces a DD as their flagship, something does not add up.

On the other hand, Rega remains steadfast in the direction of belt drives.

I recently returned to direct drive for the speed consistency and torque. Understanding that high torque does not make a TT sound good, one cannot deny it’s convienence.

I remember the 1970’s when pivotal tone arms were questioned. A very small number of manufacturers produced linear tracking arms. When Garrard was producing zero tracking error tone arms, and Dual was making rim drives. It was all very exciting. I miss that environment of creativity and innovation. We now base the level of quality on one thing. The price.
 
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