Belt Drive Tables Stink

[Joseph R.]

As I observe VPI producing direct drives, rim drives, magnetic drives and such, it makes me wonder about belt drives. Surely there must be some disadvantages and drawbacks to belt drives. I myself gave up my Thorens 160 super, returning to my old Denon direct drive. To be honest it was more the bouncy sub-suspension that bothered me more than the drive type. I any case I am happy to have migrated back to direct drive. At my level of analog, I don’t find any depreciable difference. With a tone arm and cartridge upgrade, belt drive offered me zero improvement.

Could it be that the success of the Linn Sondek moved the whole industry into belt drives. Just maybe, they are nothing special. Are we “stuck in a grove ?”, pun intended.

 

[skernes]

I have a vpi scout and a Technics SL-1200m5g.

My observation is that the VP is quieter (lower noise floor), which I attribute mostly to the belt drive. The Technics has better pitch stability, which I attribute to the direct drive with feedback.

My two cents is that both approaches have their merits; and it’s nice to see companies pushing forward with improvements in both technologies.


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[aKnyght]

you have asked a great question... it will be interesting to hear others' opinion on the tradeoffs of direct versus belt drives. i also wonder if there is an advantage of one over the other at any given price point, i.e. does one type offer more bang for the buck?

 

[cytovette]

I have a vpi scout and a Technics SL-1200m5g.

My observation is that the VP is quieter (lower noise floor), which I attribute mostly to the belt drive. The Technics has better pitch stability, which I attribute to the direct drive with feedback.

My two cents is that both approaches have their merits; and it’s nice to see companies pushing forward with improvements in both technologies.


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Getting the power transformer out from under the platter (external power supply) will lower the noise floor of a Technics 1200 a bit, it did on mine anyway.

 

[Joseph R.]

Thank you guys, for the vote of confidence. I certainly appreciate you considering my nebulous question, and observation. As I ponder this question, I realize that it can be many other design considerations that make a belt drive quieter than other drives. And who says a rubber belt cannot transfer motor vibrations to a rotating platter. When reviewing rumble and noise specs, direct drives more often come out on top. Even though I don’t see specs as a decisive factor. They are good to help in a decision, but the proof is in the listening.

I am not on a witch hunt here as I heard many excelent belt drive TT’s. As a matter of fact, most of the state of the art TT I have heard were belts. I just feel that long term momentum is taking over here. The momentum for moving coils is also building. Does this make moving magnets and moving irons bad ? It can certainly make them obsolete. It would be sad to see some really good technology taken away from us.

 

[skernes]

Thank you guys, for the vote of confidence. I certainly appreciate you considering my nebulous question, and observation. As I ponder this question, I realize that it can be many other design considerations that make a belt drive quieter than other drives. And who says a rubber belt cannot transfer motor vibrations to a rotating platter. When reviewing rumble and noise specs, direct drives more often come out on top. Even though I don’t see specs as a decisive factor. They are good to help in a decision, but the proof is in the listening.

I am not on a witch hunt here as I heard many excelent belt drive TT’s. As a matter of fact, most of the state of the art TT I have heard were belts. I just feel that long term momentum is taking over here. The momentum for moving coils is also building. Does this make moving magnets and moving irons bad ? It can certainly make them obsolete. It would be sad to see some really good technology taken away from us.

For what it’s worth... I’m really looking forward to hearing the new Technics turntables, I have a feeling they are going to be game changers.


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[Jack]

I think as the major DD innovators and manufacturers (Sony, Denon, JVC, Sanyo, etc.) either slowed down or abandoned the high-end TT field it became a matter of economics as to which drive technology survived as belt drives were more cost effective. Harry Weisfeld who was a big DD fan talked at length in multiple interviews over the years about the current prohibitive cost of producing DD motors for turntables. Technics has apparently decided that it has finally become feasible again to re-tool while the others have moved on.

 

[asiufy]

For what it’s worth... I’m really looking forward to hearing the new Technics turntables, I have a feeling they are going to be game changers.

The latest 1200G already are game changers. We've replaced several Regas and VPIs for 1200Gs, and nobody complained about them not being dead quiet...



alex

 

[skernes]

The latest 1200G already are game changers. We've replaced several Regas and VPIs for 1200Gs, and nobody complained about them not being dead quiet...



alex

I haven’t heard the 1200g yet, but I assume it’s close to my SL-1210m5g. it surely punches well about the $600 I paid for it new.

I still prefer my vpi scout to it, but like I said before... they both have their strengths.

I expect the SL-1000R to be a step up from anything I have experienced before.


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[Joseph R.]

I saw a youtube expose on the Shinola Runwell turntable. They were proud of the fact that their motor cost them $37 wholesale. Could you imagine being proud of a $37 motor in a $2,500 table ! What do other TT motors cost, $10 ? No wonder belts are popular. They reduce rumble on the cheap. If it was a direct drive, a $5,000 table might cost them $100 for a motor. This would certainly keep direct drive tables off the market.

 

[skernes]

I saw a youtube expose on the Shinola Runwell turntable. They were proud of the fact that their motor cost them $37 wholesale. Could you imagine being proud of a $37 motor in a $2,500 table ! What do other TT motors cost, $10 ? No wonder belts are popular. They reduce rumble on the cheap. If it was a direct drive, a $5,000 table might cost them $100 for a motor. This would certainly keep direct drive tables off the market.

The 600rpm hurst motors vpi uses are about $65. The funny thing is that the 300 rpm motor a lot of vpi owners “upgrade” to is about $13.


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[Kuoppis]

I currently have a Vpi Prime and I like it, so I’m not entirely in agreement with the blanket statement in the thread title. Great results can be achieved in many ways and with many technologies, but it takes more than just one or the other mechanical motor implementation to make a great table. And I don’t think many on the thread think the Kronos tables are no good.

That said I have also been looking at the Brinkmann Bardo, which is a great DD turntable. I have heard it in comparison to other tables and it was the one which made me return to vinyl after many years. So, I would not be surprised if one beautiful day the Bardo would replace the Prime.


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[Jack]

The Bardo is the one "modern" TT that would cause me to think about changing.

 

[CPP]

I think the title of this thread is a little off center. So the OP has heard other belt drive tables like Kronos, or TechDas, AMG Viella and I guess they all stink. Like anything, it depends on the design, engineering and product quantity and with turntables, and cartridge selection and setup. I like VIP, their service is outstanding and the support is just a phone call away.
[h=2][/h]

 

[Myles B. Astor]

I saw a youtube expose on the Shinola Runwell turntable. They were proud of the fact that their motor cost them $37 wholesale. Could you imagine being proud of a $37 motor in a $2,500 table ! What do other TT motors cost, $10 ? No wonder belts are popular. They reduce rumble on the cheap. If it was a direct drive, a $5,000 table might cost them $100 for a motor. This would certainly keep direct drive tables off the market.

The direct drive motor in the VPI Vanquish costs $4000. Same motor used in the original Continuum. (Not sure about the current Continuum.)

With regards to the Shinola? How much should the motor cost given say a markup of 4? So if the turntable costs $2500, that leaves them with around $1200. Halve that for parts. That includes an table, arm and cartridge. Where does the main cost of building a turntable lie? Labor. Machining, assembly, testing, etc. Then throw in cost of R&D, materials, etc. Plus do you think the motor is used stock? Most tt manufacturers makes changes to the motors too.

 

[Mr Peabody]

I had a Pioneer PL-51 for around 25 years, direct drive. During that time I bought a new Technics linear tracking etc. transferred the same cart, I took the Technics back and continued with the Pioneer.

Now what replaced finally the Pioneer was a belt driven Rega P3, granted a better cart, but the sound of that rig was an ear opener for me. Until the P3 I didn't realize vinyl could sound so good.

I also realized most of the better turntables were belt driven. It must be that way for a reason. I know there's a big retro following for the Japanese direct drive, for me, I'll stick with my belt until someone shows me a DD that sounds better. Then I'll probably still stick with my belt unless the DD was affordable.

My question for Alex, how does the 1200 stack up to a similar priced Clearaudio or VPI?

I don't know much about Brinkman, nor did I know they were direct drive. I wonder how they deal with the vibration issues of a motor connected to the platter. Even if there is a series of wheels the noise would seem to transfer.

 

[a.wayne]

Get one of each , i did ,

The Magic is everywhere, belt drive over comes DD advantages with big Mass , DD solidity of drive especially on Piano lacks BD isolation, expansive soundstage width and details.

In the end , Belt, Idler and or DD can deliver high levels of performance , setup is king. That said and at the pointy end , BD with their Big motors , high mass platters, special spindles and isolated table rules .....


Regards

 

[a.wayne]

As I observe VPI producing direct drives, rim drives, magnetic drives and such, it makes me wonder about belt drives. Surely there must be some disadvantages and drawbacks to belt drives. I myself gave up my Thorens 160 super, returning to my old Denon direct drive. To be honest it was more the bouncy sub-suspension that bothered me more than the drive type. I any case I am happy to have migrated back to direct drive. At my level of analog, I don’t find any depreciable difference. With a tone arm and cartridge upgrade, belt drive offered me zero improvement.

Could it be that the success of the Linn Sondek moved the whole industry into belt drives. Just maybe, they are nothing special. Are we “stuck in a grove ?”, pun intended.

The 160 is super sensitive to springing and IMO not that great in-regards to isolation , modified its a different beast compared to stock , in stock form very sensitive to bounce.

Yet it does not suffer from feedback like the DD , 1200, Denon nor the concrete based kenwoods KD series tables , the latter superior to those two in regards to feedback ..


Agree the 160 can be meh in stock form ...

 

[Myles B. Astor]

Get one of each , i did ,

The Magic is everywhere, belt drive over comes DD advantages with big Mass , DD solidity of drive especially on Piano lacks BD isolation, expansive soundstage width and details.

In the end , Belt, Idler and or DD can deliver high levels of performance , setup is king. That said and at the pointy end , BD with their Big motors , high mass platters, special spindles and isolated table rules .....


Regards

You gotta be kidding. I’ve had both in my system. Have you?

Have you compared the same table, one with belt, one with direct, both with the same arm and cartridge at the same time? I have and you are sadly totally wrong.

 

[a.wayne]

You gotta be kidding. I’ve had both in my system. Have you?

Have you compared the same table, one with belt, one with direct, both with the same arm and cartridge at the same time? I have and you are sadly totally wrong.

Well if you were to slow down when driving by and read what i actually wrote , I did say i had all drive types .

I guess by saying Im wrong is your short way of saying you disagree

firstly less correct some of your grade school assumptions , a TT with Belt cant be the same as one with DD , the different drive topologies will lead to different design goals and metrics.

While i can see where you are heading with this the most you can draw from your isolated conclusion is Your VPI DD sounds better than your VPI BD ..

Thats your conclusion and others may or may not agree , my VPI BD was well , just Ok, so Im not surprised ...


Regards