Are subwoofers bad for music?

Mike, I have to agree with you about REL subs. I found them to be a bit slow in comparison to other subs. It has been about 5 years since I heard a few REL's though. They were not a good match for my Magnepans. I found the Rhythmik along with the higher end Velodynes and Martin Logans to be much faster. The REL's are musical though.

I also feel that many sub owners have their subs set too loud or have the crossover set too high.
 
Mechnutt said:
Mike, I have to agree with you about REL subs. I found them to be a bit slow in comparison to other subs. It has been about 5 years since I heard a few REL's though. They were not a good match for my Magnepans. I found the Rhythmik along with the higher end Velodynes and Martin Logans to be much faster. The REL's are musical though.

I also feel that many sub owners have their subs set too loud or have the crossover set too high.
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I used to use REL subs, until a friend showed me Rythmik. I bought two and sold my REL R328 and got two Rythmik F12se. Couldn't be happier with HT and music.
 
I'm perfectly content with my twin JL e110 subs. Small, powerful when need to be, highly flexible built-in crossovers, fast and articulate, and so far, blend in perfectly with every speaker I have tried them with.

And as for adding subs to mains that are fullrange, I added these two little JL subs to my pair of NHT 2.9's which easily dig deep on their own. Leaving them to play fullrange and adding in the JL's didn't exactly "add" more bass to the equation, rather added space, air and rhythm to the mix.

The way I have them dialed in in my current system with the small-ish Sonus Faber Venere 1.5's, they blend perfectly. Granted, it took days of tweaking gains, crossover points, phase, etc, etc with both subs to get them right, but in the end, you can close your eyes and listen to anything and not tell there's subs in the room. They simply add a natural extension to the Venere 1.5's as if they are much much larger floor standers.
 
Mike said:
Agree on JL Audio. I always thought REL was better until they sounded so sluggish with the fast Magico M3 drivers. As Jim said, “they’re adding nothing and in fact taking away.” Then I heard JL subs at a clients with his S7’s and it was superb. Seamless in fact. That’s when I realized how slow the REL’s were with Magico and other fast speakers and the superiority of the JL Subs. To be fair, the REL’s might be fine with Harbeth for example. But I’m not sure I would take the chance today. JL v2 subs seem like a safer bet. There’s also some great subs from Mark Seaton, SVS and others.

Now Magico subs with Magico would be the ultimate! [emoji106][emoji41][emoji106]


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There is no such thing as a fast or slow driver/subwoofer. I'm not trying to defend REL subs, but rather there was something else probably wrong with the sub.

This is from DATABASS's myth section...

"Often times people make the mistake that sound quality is in fact related to the woofers quickness, but in fact the woofer�s quickness is exactly related to SPL. The faster the driver, the higher the SPL. There are two ways to change a woofer�s speed. 1. Lower the frequency of the input its reproducing or 2. increase the volume. Sounds silly, but its true. There are many other factors that go into making a subwoofer sound fast or slow (boomy or tight) but that divulges into system design. What�s important about this myth is that speed is an inappropriate concept of sound quality."
 
Toprahman said:
There is no such thing as a fast or slow driver/subwoofer. I'm not trying to defend REL subs, but rather there was something else probably wrong with the sub.

This is from DATABASS's myth section...

"Often times people make the mistake that sound quality is in fact related to the woofers quickness, but in fact the woofer�s quickness is exactly related to SPL. The faster the driver, the higher the SPL. There are two ways to change a woofer�s speed. 1. Lower the frequency of the input its reproducing or 2. increase the volume. Sounds silly, but its true. There are many other factors that go into making a subwoofer sound fast or slow (boomy or tight) but that divulges into system design. What�s important about this myth is that speed is an inappropriate concept of sound quality."
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There is absolutely faster and slower sounding subwoofers regardless of SPL. There are a number of factors that go into the speed of a subwoofer: driver excursion, amp power, amp type, etc.

REL even discusses the importance of speed on their website: see “speed”:

https://rel.net/pick-right-subwoofer/

“Without the ability to match speed and dexterity to your system, that subwoofer will sound like a walrus in rut.”


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Mike said:
There is absolutely faster and slower sounding subwoofers regardless of SPL. There are a number of factors that go into the speed of a subwoofer: driver excursion, amp power, amp type, etc.

REL even discusses the importance of speed on their website: see “speed”:

https://rel.net/pick-right-subwoofer/

“Without the ability to match speed and dexterity to your system, that subwoofer will sound like a walrus in rut.”


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What about the Usain Bolt subs? I hear they are really fast.
 
Mike said:
There is absolutely faster and slower sounding subwoofers regardless of SPL. There are a number of factors that go into the speed of a subwoofer: driver excursion, amp power, amp type, etc.

REL even discusses the importance of speed on their website: see “speed”:

“Without the ability to match speed and dexterity to your system, that subwoofer will sound like a walrus in rut.”


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Lol REL's webpage is all marketing gobbledygook. They themselves can't even describe what exactly is "fast" or "slow" about the subwoofer. I am actually a bit disappointed in them. The whole webpage sounds like a scam to convince people to buy their subs because they are "faster" "richer" or "warmer".

I'm not saying things can't sound "slow/fast" or "boomy/tight" or really whatever adjective you want to use... The point I was trying to make is that fast and slow is not the right way to describe it, because its kind of meaningless. The only part of a subwoofer thats moving is the diaphragm and the speed of the diaphragm is dependent on SPL and frequency that its playing.

If you felt the REL sub was "slow", its probably a problem with distortion or room resonances making it sound that way.

As far as matching the "speed" of the sub and speaker... I have yet to encounter an acoustical engineer explain what that means and I've asked...
 
This may help you https://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb061999.htm

or http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/a-guide-to-better-bass-tas-197-1/

I'd have to find a white paper or something to explain motor structure etc. I don't feel that helpful at this point, LOL Just out of time.

Toprahman said:
Lol REL's webpage is all marketing gobbledygook. They themselves can't even describe what exactly is "fast" or "slow" about the subwoofer. I am actually a bit disappointed in them. The whole webpage sounds like a scam to convince people to buy their subs because they are "faster" "richer" or "warmer".

I'm not saying things can't sound "slow/fast" or "boomy/tight" or really whatever adjective you want to use... The point I was trying to make is that fast and slow is not the right way to describe it, because its kind of meaningless. The only part of a subwoofer thats moving is the diaphragm and the speed of the diaphragm is dependent on SPL and frequency that its playing.

If you felt the REL sub was "slow", its probably a problem with distortion or room resonances making it sound that way.

As far as matching the "speed" of the sub and speaker... I have yet to encounter an acoustical engineer explain what that means and I've asked...
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Mr Peabody said:
This may help you...

I'd have to find a white paper or something to explain motor structure etc. I don't feel that helpful at this point, LOL Just out of time.
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I've read that absolute sound article before and the 2nd article couldn't have said it better. I 100% agree and the author seems to also agree that "fast" and "slow" bass have nothing to do with speed and there are many different possible causes for this perception.

"Fast" or "slow" bass is not the right terminology. The author describes poor integration between midrange and woofer causing distortion. He emphasizes this has nothing to do with the woofer's quality but moreso to do with the integration or mismatches between the amplifiers. I'd also add that resonances and amplifier clipping can cause this perception.

Actually reading that article really points how absurd it is what REL has written on their webpage.
 
"Wooly", which I can hear from an amp into a 2 way speaker let alone a sub, "loose" like wrong way with lefty loosy & righty tighty, not the neighbor when you were a young-un but someone did the "nut" up wrong way huh, relaxed, not-coherent, un-resolving.... sounds like the mother in-laws logic, bit fuzzy.....
Come on! Most of the guys on this site have enough credibility & experience to be able to hear the difference between room & speed of delivery,....
If you can't, it's alright.....
 
Certainly, many spkrs can play down to the 20-40hz range and you can “hear” that, but with properly integrated subs (at least two) that same range is a totally different experience, not even close.

At THAT point its personal preference imho. Much of that integration has so much to do with the room + acoustics, which inevitably is the most difficult freq range to deal with. Do it right, no comparison. Do it wrong, ewe.



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My Magico A3's go down to 22hz and give a very solid bass to midbass. When I turn on my twin SVS 1000 sealed subs I hear drums, pianos, standup bass with more weight and body to the instruments. My preamp has stereo sub outs and I set the A3's to full and the subs are set at 160 hz. Much higher than my usual setup with other speaker I have used with subs. I've used stands under my subs to decouple them from the floor. In home theater to keep things from rattling using sub stands can reduce external noise and falling objects. Today I removed the sub stands just to hear any changes in just a music setup. Now, I notice the instruments anchored and placed with weight and body. Ya gotta love this hobby.
 
Darrel said:
Today I removed the sub stands just to hear any changes in just a music setup. Now, I notice the instruments anchored and placed with weight and body. Ya gotta love this hobby.
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That's the exact opposite of what's supposed to happen when taking the stands away.

The difference that you said you heard is what you're supposed to notice with the subwoofer stands in place.
 
Hi Howard,

Are those Q15 subwoofers tucked in back there? Congratulations!!! With the S7’s and Q15’s, you must be experiencing some awesome bass.

Enjoy,
Ken
 
Alpinist said:
Hi Howard,

Are those Q15 subwoofers tucked in back there? Congratulations!!! With the S7’s and Q15’s, you must be experiencing some awesome bass.

Enjoy,
Ken
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Yeah, QSub 15's. Just starting to dial them in myself... proper setup won't happen until next week. Even without break in, still on wheels, and without proper setup you can tell that there is greatness here. Sometimes you don't realize what you're missing until you hear it.

As good as the JLA F112s were, they were child's toys compared to these monsters.

Scared the crap out of myself listening to Metallica's Enter Sandman. :snicker:
 
The Sandman said:
Yeah, QSub 15's. Just starting to dial them in myself... proper setup won't happen until next week. Even without break in, still on wheels, and without proper setup you can tell that there is greatness here. Sometimes you don't realize what you're missing until you hear it.

As good as the JLA F112s were, they were child's toys compared to these monsters.

Scared the crap out of myself listening to Metallica's Enter Sandman. :snicker:
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My favorite song! Try "Nothing Else Matters" as well. Starts off slow then BOOM.

Would love to hear the system!
 
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