Are exotic material drivers required for a SOTA loudspeaker?

[Alpinist]

Hey Ken. Can you elaborate on what you mean when you say the cabinets are "phase corrected." I read all of the marketing materials on the Vandy website for your speakers and unless I missed it, I saw no mention of the cabinets being "phase corrected."

According to Richard, his speakers are time and phase coherent. I assume he would know. I adjusted my post to reflect this.

Ken

 

[mep]

According to Richard, his speakers are time and phase coherent. I assume he would know. I adjusted my post to reflect this.

Ken

That is true Ken. What Richard said makes sense. Saying the cabinets are phase corrected didn’t make sense.

 

[mep]

Only if the picture is put into proper context. Nobody is driving a dedicated midrange driver to 14 kHz, let alone driving the midrange cone with a pure 14 kHz test tone.

I stand corrected. The second tone is 1.4 kHz, not 14 kHz. Now the test makes sense. I missed the decimal point. Dre enlightened me that I was wrong.

 

[mdp632]

Many SOTA companies here that seem to have an objective approach; Magico , Vandersteen and YG tout the use of exotic materials to achieve a pistonic motion in their drivers.

As a result, less distortion , can be measured and easily heard. As mentioned above.

However, I do think that it is subjective hobby and many designers (Wilson) subjectively prefer and want to voice their speakers as such.

The sum of all parts.

 

[Mike]

Many SOTA companies here that seem to have an objective approach; Magico , Wilson and YG tout the use of exotic materials to achieve a pistonic motion in their drivers.

As a result, less distortion , can be measured and easily heard. As mentioned above.

However, I do think that it is subjective hobby and many designers (Wilson) subjectively prefer and want to voice their speakers as such.

The sum of all parts.

Wilson uses exotic driver materials?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[mdp632]

Wilson uses exotic driver materials?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Sorry, meant to type Vandersteen. Original post edited.

 

[rbbert]

Less distortion often at the expense of "efficiency", and perhaps dynamics or whatever term you use for the "jump" factor that characterizes most (or all?) high-efficiency speakers? In addition to the radiation pattern of live music (or at least most musical instruments), that property is frequently cited as important in quickly telling live from reproduced.

 

[mep]

Less distortion often at the expense of "efficiency", and perhaps dynamics or whatever term you use for the "jump" factor that characterizes most (or all?) high-efficiency speakers? In addition to the radiation pattern of live music (or at least most musical instruments), that property is frequently cited as important in quickly telling live from reproduced.

For the here and now, I’m done with low sensitivity/low impedance speakers. That journey away from low sensitivity/low impedance speakers started with the NOLA KOs I owned for years and carried over to my JBL 4345 speakers. I don’t see myself going back.

 

[sb6]

and the new super uber big $$$ Magico M9 uses the same 11" Accuton ceramic woofer (somewhat modified) used in my MM7's (but only 2 per side).

Mike, I'm not sure where you read / heard that the Magico M9 uses ceramic drivers. Their drivers other than the tweeter (Be) use aluminum honeycomb core sandwiched between a graphene/carbon fiber skin.

IME over the years as you hear better and better systems and speakers you learn to hear the detriment of speaker designs adopted by brands (but sometimes modified over time) and sometimes, less often you hear which speakers do sound right. By right, I mean lower distortion, seamless transition driver to driver and across all drivers, lack of detrimental box effects, a high level of detail, extreme dynamics, effortlessness and the rarest of all - neutrality.

All that said, IMO there's a relationship between the speaker requirements above and the materials used (to be fair there are also other variables). Again, IME the best of the best I've heard don't use paper which is a good material in terms of cost and inherent self damping characteristics, however it lacks the stiffness and control of materials like ceramic, metals and carbon - based drivers.

The problem here is that, as humans we are subjective creatures and as such, not all value what I value as critical to a very high quality speaker and drivers. For example. some people don't value neutrality, they want a "warmer" sound. Some want "slammin' bass" over articulate accurate bass. And as such, some high end speaker companies capitalize in a market who like what they hear even if the design has inherent distortion, lacks frequency balance and has exaggerated and sometimes bloated bass. Net - driver materials matter in truly high end designs and for those that care about the attributes stated above. But for many (most?) of the market, it's meaningless.

 

[Alpinist]

Interestingly, YG Acoustics does not use SOTA materials in its drivers. Aluminum is hardly SOTA. However, the way they manufacture their driver cones out of aluminum is absolutely SOTA. The cones are milled out of a solid block of aluminum to maximize rigidity and minimize weight. I’ve listened to the Sonja 1.2’s and 2.2’s many times and I continue to be impressed by the realistic sound they produce.

Ken

 

[mep]

Interestingly, YG Acoustics does not use SOTA materials in its drivers. Aluminum is hardly SOTA. However, the way they manufacture their driver cones out of aluminum is absolutely SOTA. The cones are milled out of a solid block of aluminum to maximize rigidity and minimize weight. I’ve listened to the Sonja 1.2’s and 2.2’s many times and I continue to be impressed by the realistic sound they produce.

Ken

I went to the YG factory with Myles and got the $.50 tour one year when we were attending RMAF. It was an interesting tour.

 

[puroagave]

For the here and now, I’m done with low sensitivity/low impedance speakers. That journey away from low sensitivity/low impedance speakers started with the NOLA KOs I owned for years and carried over to my JBL 4345 speakers. I don’t see myself going back.

One really comes to understand how much power is wasted as heat as an amp huffs and puffs to move a typical diaphragm in a direct radiator speaker for semi-realistic SPLs. Like you, I ain't going back. I've succumbed to the high-efficiently koolaid and its pretty darn good

 

[sb6]

Interestingly, YG Acoustics does not use SOTA materials in its drivers. Aluminum is hardly SOTA. However, the way they manufacture their driver cones out of aluminum is absolutely SOTA. The cones are milled out of a solid block of aluminum to maximize rigidity and minimize weight. I’ve listened to the Sonja 1.2’s and 2.2’s many times and I continue to be impressed by the realistic sound they produce.

Ken

Agree, and I would put Vivid Audio in that camp, also aluminum. Different approaches but both stellar SOTA speaker companies IMO.

 

[rbbert]

Mike, I'm not sure where you read / heard that the Magico M9 uses ceramic drivers. Their drivers other than the tweeter (Be) use aluminum honeycomb core sandwiched between a graphene/carbon fiber skin.

IME over the years as you hear better and better systems and speakers you learn to hear the detriment of speaker designs adopted by brands (but sometimes modified over time) and sometimes, less often you hear which speakers do sound right. By right, I mean lower distortion, seamless transition driver to driver and across all drivers, lack of detrimental box effects, a high level of detail, extreme dynamics, effortlessness and the rarest of all - neutrality.

All that said, IMO there's a relationship between the speaker requirements above and the materials used (to be fair there are also other variables). Again, IME the best of the best I've heard don't use paper which is a good material in terms of cost and inherent self damping characteristics, however it lacks the stiffness and control of materials like ceramic, metals and carbon - based drivers.

The problem here is that, as humans we are subjective creatures and as such, not all value what I value as critical to a very high quality speaker and drivers. For example. some people don't value neutrality, they want a "warmer" sound. Some want "slammin' bass" over articulate accurate bass. And as such, some high end speaker companies capitalize in a market who like what they hear even if the design has inherent distortion, lacks frequency balance and has exaggerated and sometimes bloated bass. Net - driver materials matter in truly high end designs and for those that care about the attributes stated above. But for many (most?) of the market, it's meaningless.

Not very well thought out, I’m afraid. Most (not all) audiophiles are trying to end up with a system that sounds like live music to them. If all that required was low distortion and what you term “neutrality” then we would all have the same systems (at any given price point). The obvious fact is, though, that no matter how much one spends you will not end up with a system that will be confused with live music, and even at stratospheric prices you can end up with many different systems, all excellent, none sounding the same, none which will be confused with live music, and not all of them (maybe not even the “best” of them, if there is such a thing) “neutral” in the sense you mean.

 

[mep]

One really comes to understand how much power is wasted as heat as an amp huffs and puffs to move a typical diaphragm in a direct radiator speaker for semi-realistic SPLs. Like you, I ain't going back. I've succumbed to the high-efficiently koolaid and its pretty darn good

Low sensitivity/low impedance speakers are really for SS amps IMO. High sensitivity/high impedance speakers do jump to life quickly and have exciting dynamics. If your SS amp doubles its power output power at 4 ohms and they are driving speakers with a nominal impedance of 4 ohms, your amp is being pushed much harder than if it was driving high impedance/high sensitivity speakers.

 

[nicoff]

....
If your SS amp doubles its power output power at 4 ohms and they are driving speakers with a nominal impedance of 4 ohms, your amp is being pushed much harder than if it was driving high impedance/high sensitivity speakers.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that! That’s why you bought such a machine. It is like when you take a sports car to the track: you make use of the entire track not just half of it. [emoji16]

 

[mep]

Absolutely nothing wrong with that! That’s why you bought such a machine. It is like when you take a sports car to the track: you make use of the entire track not just half of it. [emoji16]

Yeah, but you don’t drive the snot out of your sports car everyday.

 

[sb6]

Not very well thought out, I’m afraid. Most (not all) audiophiles are trying to end up with a system that sounds like live music to them. If all that required was low distortion and what you term “neutrality” then we would all have the same systems (at any given price point). The obvious fact is, though, that no matter how much one spends you will not end up with a system that will be confused with live music, and even at stratospheric prices you can end up with many different systems, all excellent, none sounding the same, none which will confused with live music, and not all of them (maybe not even the “best” of them, if there is such a thing) “neutral” in the sense you mean.

Not very well thought out? Ha Ha, relax self - proclaimed audiophile genius.

First, thanks for your opinion. However you missed and / or misinterpreted several points I made. Specifically - a) focusing on the OP's question WRT driver, not the complete system, you veered off topic. b) all above was my opinion, take it or leave it; it's not right or wrong or 1/2 "thought out" or not. c) Staying on the OP's topic WRT speaker driver material and what attributes I believe matter most I specifically stated, "to be fair there are also other variables". Yes, neutrality is very important but not the whole enchilada.

In addition WRT neutrality = we would all have the the same system is ridiculous; your grossly overvaluing my comment and the effects of system complexity and component synergy.


Not very well thought out, I'm afraid ;-)

 

[rbbert]

Except for your occasional qualifier “IME” or “IMO” I think I represented your post very well Yes I went off on you a bit, and perhaps unfairly, because you do mention all the important attributes a speaker (both driver and system) should have. To date, the biggest problem I have had with speaker systems using “exotic” materials (and I realize I did not define very well what that is) for drivers has been relatively low efficiency (due to higher mass? more complex Xovers?) and IMO that makes it hard to accurately reproduce dynamics. Neutrality is a term like transparency that has probably been overused and perhaps improperly used by audio reviewers and posters in forums like this, and in the way that you used it in your post I would not agree with your premise.

Edit: low moving mass without the stiffness and self-damping you mention are characteristics of ribbon and electrostatic drivers (certainly not exotic), and each of these types of drivers offer desirable sonic characteristics hard to achieve with other designs or materials

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, I'm not sure where you read / heard that the Magico M9 uses ceramic drivers. Their drivers other than the tweeter (Be) use aluminum honeycomb core sandwiched between a graphene/carbon fiber skin.

i cannot recall, and realize i said it was based on that 11" Accuton Ceramic woofer driver and then modified. maybe Accuton changed the membrane for Magico. there are very few high efficiency 11" woofers out there. if you have alternate information about the source of that particular 11" driver then enlighten us.

and i could be wrong.